**
Hi Listers,

I would appreciate your input to the following question:

"What advantage does Remedy offer in developing an application against using something like Visual Basic or Oracle Forms."

Thank you for your input.

Raj

This posting was submitted via the Web interface

**
**

Ok, I’ll bite first.



Oracle Forms/VB are true 4GL’s (Generation Language) and Remedy can be viewed as ‘4 and half’ GL. The distinction that I make is the granularity of control the developer has. With a 4GL you have complete control of the environment. That control comes with a cost. The cost is longer development and debugging time. Remedy offers 90% of the control of a 4GL without the lengthy development time.



That’s my 50k foot view.



Peter McMullen

QMX Support Services

Voice: 250.701.3748



-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Raj Rajakumar
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:02 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms



Hi Listers,

I would appreciate your input to the following question:

"What advantage does Remedy offer in developing an application against using something like Visual Basic or Oracle Forms."

Thank you for your input.

Raj

This posting was submitted via the Web This posting was submitted via the Web interface interface

**
Peter,

Wouldn't that be 3 and a half GL or less ? Semantics.....

Regards...Gidd

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG]On Behalf Of Peter McMullen
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:25 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms


** **

Ok, I’ll bite first.



Oracle Forms/VB are true 4GL’s (Generation Language) and Remedy can be viewed as ‘4 and half’ GL. The distinction that I make is the granularity of control the developer has. With a 4GL you have complete control of the environment. That control comes with a cost. The cost is longer development and debugging time. Remedy offers 90% of the control of a 4GL without the lengthy development time.



That’s my 50k foot view.



Peter McMullen

QMX Support Services

Voice: 250.701.3748



-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Raj Rajakumar
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:02 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms



Hi Listers,

I would appreciate your input to the following question:

"What advantage does Remedy offer in developing an application against using something like Visual Basic or Oracle Forms."

Thank you for your input.

Raj

This posting was submitted via the Web This posting was submitted via the Web interface interface

This posting was submitted via the Web interface

**
The vision at Remedy is to be cross-platform web application development framework. Version 5 is a big step in that direction. Being cross-platform, you can't expect to have all the flexibility and control you would have in developing for a specific platform.

Even Visual Basic will eventually be dropped in favor of VB.NET, which takes us back to web application's development. So eventually all application development will be for the web, and client server technologies will slowly and gradually fade away. It will take time, but that's the end game.

If you develop something in VB now, you may need to migrate to VB.NET in the mid term. Microsoft will do whatever they can to force application migrations to .NET, including dropping support for "older" technologies. As an FYI, did you know that Microsoft had initial plans to drop Win2K support in April 2003? That's two months from now!! Here at Target, there is still a lot of NT yet! We haven't even migrated to W2K entirely yet!!

Guillaume


-----Original Message-----
From: Raj Rajakumar [mailto:rajkn@MSN.COM]
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 10:02
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms


**
Hi Listers,

I would appreciate your input to the following question:

"What advantage does Remedy offer in developing an application against using something like Visual Basic or Oracle Forms."

Thank you for your input.

Raj

This posting was submitted via the Web interface

This posting was submitted via the Web interface

**
Gidd and Peter,

This is a great point. Can we find a consensus on what generation Remedy is as a development language? I've been going under the assumption it is either a 4th generation language or a code generator, a distinction which is extremely important when comparing metrics data for our project against dissimilar projects. How do others generate metrics for their Remedy project? We're using LSLOC to generate metrics for our project. Currently, we sit at about 27 million LSLOC for 4 developers over 4 years of developing with Remedy.

If anyone can give us some feedback on how they're getting numbers, I'd really appreciate it.

Jennifer Spaeth
SAIC
jennifer.spaeth@afwa.af.mil
402.294.7516



-----Original Message-----
From: Gidd Calden [mailto:gidd@BUOYANTSOLUTIONS.NET]
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 11:43
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms


**
Peter,

Wouldn't that be 3 and a half GL or less ? Semantics.....

Regards...Gidd

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG]On Behalf Of Peter McMullen
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:25 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms


** **

Ok, I'll bite first.



Oracle Forms/VB are true 4GL's (Generation Language) and Remedy can be viewed as '4 and half' GL. The distinction that I make is the granularity of control the developer has. With a 4GL you have complete control of the environment. That control comes with a cost. The cost is longer development and debugging time. Remedy offers 90% of the control of a 4GL without the lengthy development time.



That's my 50k foot view.



Peter McMullen

QMX Support Services

Voice: 250.701.3748



-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Raj Rajakumar
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:02 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms



Hi Listers,

I would appreciate your input to the following question:

"What advantage does Remedy offer in developing an application against using something like Visual Basic or Oracle Forms."

Thank you for your input.

Raj

This posting was submitted via the Web This posting was submitted via the Web interface interface

This posting was submitted via the Web interface
This posting was submitted via the Web interface

**
**

Depends on your perspective !!!



Peter McMullen

QMX Support Services

Voice: 250.701.3748



-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Gidd Calden
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:43 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms



Peter,



Wouldn't that be 3 and a half GL or less ? Semantics.....



Regards...Gidd

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG]On Behalf Of Peter McMullen
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:25 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms

** **

Ok, I’ll bite first.



Oracle Forms/VB are true 4GL’s (Generation Language) and Remedy can be viewed as ‘4 and half’ GL. The distinction that I make is the granularity of control the developer has. With a 4GL you have complete control of the environment. That control comes with a cost. The cost is longer development and debugging time. Remedy offers 90% of the control of a 4GL without the lengthy development time.



That’s my 50k foot view.



Peter McMullen

QMX Support Services

Voice: 250.701.3748



-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Raj Rajakumar
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:02 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms



Hi Listers,

I would appreciate your input to the following question:

"What advantage does Remedy offer in developing an application against using something like Visual Basic or Oracle Forms."

Thank you for your input.

Raj

This posting was submitted via the Web This posting was submitted via the Web interface interface

This posting was submitted via the Web This posting was submitted via the Web interface interface

Oy!

Ok folks, I think that before you can define what generation a language is,
that you first have to define that something *is* a programming language.

This being said, I think that it is safe to say that the rest of my message
here is more techni-rant than anything else - yet it is a techni-rant with a
point.

Depending on whose interpretation that you happen to lean towards, exactly
what constitutes a language per se is somewhat open to intreptation. As far
as I understand the theory, there are two primary branches to what the
industry terms as a "programming language." Each branch of the language
family is subdivided further ( It would be, of course ).

The first is called an FPL, or Functional Programming Language. This type of
language is based upon the composition of functions to solve problems. In
such a language, the functions are relational, meaning that when the
functions are invoked, they recieve and return values to parent which
invoked them.

The second type of language is known as a DPL, or Declartive Programming
Language. This division of languages is geared toward static, unchanging,
ever-so-stolid rules on what needs to be processed. In short, the two
divisions can be tought of like this : DPL's describe what to process and
FPL's describe how to process it.

Admittedly, I am over simplifying the entire debate ( and my definitions )
but the point is still the same : Where does the AR System fit into any of
this? If I am "writing code" in the admin tool, am I really "programming?"

If we define a language - still further - by it's extensibility - ergo it's
applicability to specific progamming tasks - how well does the AR System
compare? Does an "active link" really provide me with a method of doing
something as simple as opening a text file and reading the first few lines?
Well... No it doesn't. Is there some "action" in a "filter" which will allow
me to open up a socket and recieve results from a process on a server?
Sorry, but again the answer is no. I am left without a "language" specific
option for doing this. Where is the "code?" Where is the syntax of the
language?

To accomplish all of these things and more, I have to step outside the AR
System and put something together in *another language* so that I can use it
in *conjunction* with the AR System.

IMHO, writing code is characterized by the painstaking act of writing (
many ) lines of code that are syntactically correct in an accepted,
extensible language. ( That and loosing hair, sleep and ones sanity after a
14 hour stint in front of a C++ IDE on a project due yesterday. ) Normally,
( with a few exceptions ) mastering a programming language takes much time.
Somehow the act of stringing together a series of active links and filters -
again IMHO - does not automatically make one a computer programmer. A
developer, most certainly, but not a programmer.

Don't get me wrong here, I believe to the AR System to be a *wonderful*
tool. I recommend it's use to everyone and it is my development platform of
choice. I have built and deployed a number of *solutions* ( not programs )
based upon it, and hope to keep working with it for many years to come. I
just seem to have a slight difference of opinion here.

Will Du Chene
william.du.chene@state.mn.us

AR System 4.5
Sybase 11.9.2

PS : I post this to the list only because it is a matter of convience. I can
get all the interested parties in one shot. Flame / spam me for it off the
list, please.

"C and C++ are an artform : They may take a week to learn, but a lifetime to
master."

----- Original Message -----
From: Spaeth Jennifer Contractor HQ AFWA
To: 'arslist@ARSLIST.ORG'
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms


**
Gidd and Peter,

This is a great point. Can we find a consensus on what generation Remedy is
as a development language? I've been going under the assumption it is
either a 4th generation language or a code generator, a distinction which is
extremely important when comparing metrics data for our project against
dissimilar projects. How do others generate metrics for their Remedy
project? We're using LSLOC to generate metrics for our project. Currently,
we sit at about 27 million LSLOC for 4 developers over 4 years of developing
with Remedy.

If anyone can give us some feedback on how they're getting numbers, I'd
really appreciate it.

Jennifer Spaeth
SAIC
jennifer.spaeth@afwa.af.mil
402.294.7516


-----Original Message-----
From: Gidd Calden [mailto:gidd@BUOYANTSOLUTIONS.NET]
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 11:43
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms


**
Peter,

Wouldn't that be 3 and a half GL or less ? Semantics.....

Regards...Gidd
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG]On Behalf Of Peter McMullen
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:25 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms


** **
Ok, I'll bite first.

Oracle Forms/VB are true 4GL's (Generation Language) and Remedy can be
viewed as '4 and half' GL. The distinction that I make is the granularity
of control the developer has. With a 4GL you have complete control of the
environment. That control comes with a cost. The cost is longer
development and debugging time. Remedy offers 90% of the control of a 4GL
without the lengthy development time.

That's my 50k foot view.

Peter McMullen
QMX Support Services
Voice: 250.701.3748

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Raj Rajakumar
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:02 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms

Hi Listers,
I would appreciate your input to the following question:
"What advantage does Remedy offer in developing an application against using
something like Visual Basic or Oracle Forms."
Thank you for your input.
Raj

UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSList Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org ) ARSList is hosted by QMX SUPPORT
SERVICES at www.QMXS.com This posting was submitted via the Web

UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSList Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org ) ARSList is hosted by QMX SUPPORT
SERVICES at www.QMXS.com This posting was submitted via the Web interface
interface

UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSList Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org ) ARSList is hosted by QMX SUPPORT
SERVICES at www.QMXS.com This posting was submitted via the Web interface

UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSList Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org ) ARSList is hosted by QMX SUPPORT
SERVICES at www.QMXS.com This posting was submitted via the Web interface

Guillaume.Rheault wrote:

[...]

> If you develop something in VB now, you may need to migrate to VB.NET in
> the mid term. Microsoft will do whatever they can to force application
> migrations to .NET, including dropping support for "older" technologies.
> As an FYI, did you know that Microsoft had initial plans to drop Win2K
> support in April 2003? That's two months from now!! Here at Target,
> there is still a lot of NT yet! We haven't even migrated to W2K entirely
> yet!!

I think you'll find that they may reverse that decision at some point.
You see, if you're being forced to move from the relatively stable Win2K
environment to XP, then you're being forced from a known good platform
to one that costs more, requires more system resources to run, and has
an even more restrictive licencing policy.

On the other hand, Linux doesn't require licences, is now known to be
more stable than Win2K even, and happily out-performs Win2K and XP on
similar hardware.

The Linux environment is also quite a nice one to use; lots of scripting
languages built in, nice CRON system, firewalling built into the modern
kernels, and it is still sufficiently UNIX-like that Solaris engineers
can get along with it, and sufficiently Windows-like that most users get
on with the desktops fairly well, too.

So, Microsoft is just starting to get a little nervous about Linux.
Sufficiently nervous that I think they'll reconsider phasing out Win2K,
since such a move might give quite a few IT managers the push they've
been needing to move to Linux, especially in the modern economic climate
where cutting costs is rather important.


--
Dr Dan Holdsworth
Remedy ARS Administrator, Manchester Computing
daniel.r.holdsworth@man.ac.uk
0161 275 0606

Hi All!

After having written enough code with "real programming languages" (i.e.:
2GL's & 3GL's) to kill a small forest for paper to print all of it out, I
would agree with Will that one might not be able to label oneself a true
"Computer Programmer" after having "Written" a set of Remedy apps using the
basic Remedy functionality.

However, In my opinion, Remedy IS a 4GL.

By the definitions on the dictionary.com site at
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fourth%20generation%20language:

"...
An "application specific" language. The term was invented by
Jim Martin to refer to non-procedural high level languages
built around database systems. The first three generations
were developed fairly quickly, but it was still frustrating,
slow, and error prone to program computers, leading to the
first "programming crisis", in which the amount of work that
might be assigned to programmers greatly exceeded the amount
of programmer time available to do it. Meanwhile, a lot of
experience was gathered in certain areas, and it became clear
that certain applications could be generalised by adding
limited programming languages to them.
..."

Now:
1) Remedy is "application specific"
i.e.: Worflow automation
2) Remedy is "non-procedural"
i.e.: No extensive million Lines Of Code to be typed manually.
3) Remedy is "high level"
i.e.: Drag-&-Drop form creation without having to manually create
supporting data storage structures on disk or DB.
4) Remedy is "built around database systems"
i.e.: See Remedy Compatibility Matrix.
5) Remedy is "generalised"
i.e.: Generalised functions available for application generation in
tems of active link/filter triggers & actions.


Just my 0.02.


Best Regards,
Theo J. Fondse
Remedy Developer
Siemens Business Services

Telephone: +27 11 652 7477
Mobile: +27 83 773 3075
e-Mail: theo.fondse@ars.smc.siemens.co.za
Web: http://www.siemens.co.za/
===========================================================================


-----Original Message-----
From: William H. "Will" Du Chene [mailto:wduchene@GENESISWIRELESS.COM]
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 5:53 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms


Oy!

Ok folks, I think that before you can define what generation a language is,
that you first have to define that something *is* a programming language.

This being said, I think that it is safe to say that the rest of my message
here is more techni-rant than anything else - yet it is a techni-rant with a
point.

Depending on whose interpretation that you happen to lean towards, exactly
what constitutes a language per se is somewhat open to intreptation. As far
as I understand the theory, there are two primary branches to what the
industry terms as a "programming language." Each branch of the language
family is subdivided further ( It would be, of course ).

The first is called an FPL, or Functional Programming Language. This type of
language is based upon the composition of functions to solve problems. In
such a language, the functions are relational, meaning that when the
functions are invoked, they recieve and return values to parent which
invoked them.

The second type of language is known as a DPL, or Declartive Programming
Language. This division of languages is geared toward static, unchanging,
ever-so-stolid rules on what needs to be processed. In short, the two
divisions can be tought of like this : DPL's describe what to process and
FPL's describe how to process it.

Admittedly, I am over simplifying the entire debate ( and my definitions )
but the point is still the same : Where does the AR System fit into any of
this? If I am "writing code" in the admin tool, am I really "programming?"

If we define a language - still further - by it's extensibility - ergo it's
applicability to specific progamming tasks - how well does the AR System
compare? Does an "active link" really provide me with a method of doing
something as simple as opening a text file and reading the first few lines?
Well... No it doesn't. Is there some "action" in a "filter" which will allow
me to open up a socket and recieve results from a process on a server?
Sorry, but again the answer is no. I am left without a "language" specific
option for doing this. Where is the "code?" Where is the syntax of the
language?

To accomplish all of these things and more, I have to step outside the AR
System and put something together in *another language* so that I can use it
in *conjunction* with the AR System.

IMHO, writing code is characterized by the painstaking act of writing (
many ) lines of code that are syntactically correct in an accepted,
extensible language. ( That and loosing hair, sleep and ones sanity after a
14 hour stint in front of a C++ IDE on a project due yesterday. ) Normally,
( with a few exceptions ) mastering a programming language takes much time.
Somehow the act of stringing together a series of active links and filters -
again IMHO - does not automatically make one a computer programmer. A
developer, most certainly, but not a programmer.

Don't get me wrong here, I believe to the AR System to be a *wonderful*
tool. I recommend it's use to everyone and it is my development platform of
choice. I have built and deployed a number of *solutions* ( not programs )
based upon it, and hope to keep working with it for many years to come. I
just seem to have a slight difference of opinion here.

Will Du Chene
william.du.chene@state.mn.us

AR System 4.5
Sybase 11.9.2

PS : I post this to the list only because it is a matter of convience. I can
get all the interested parties in one shot. Flame / spam me for it off the
list, please.

"C and C++ are an artform : They may take a week to learn, but a lifetime to
master."

----- Original Message -----
From: Spaeth Jennifer Contractor HQ AFWA
To: 'arslist@ARSLIST.ORG'
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 12:12 PM
Subject: RE: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms


**
Gidd and Peter,

This is a great point. Can we find a consensus on what generation Remedy is
as a development language? I've been going under the assumption it is
either a 4th generation language or a code generator, a distinction which is
extremely important when comparing metrics data for our project against
dissimilar projects. How do others generate metrics for their Remedy
project? We're using LSLOC to generate metrics for our project. Currently,
we sit at about 27 million LSLOC for 4 developers over 4 years of developing
with Remedy.

If anyone can give us some feedback on how they're getting numbers, I'd
really appreciate it.

Jennifer Spaeth
SAIC
jennifer.spaeth@afwa.af.mil
402.294.7516


-----Original Message-----
From: Gidd Calden [mailto:gidd@BUOYANTSOLUTIONS.NET]
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 11:43
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms


**
Peter,

Wouldn't that be 3 and a half GL or less ? Semantics.....

Regards...Gidd
-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG]On Behalf Of Peter McMullen
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 9:25 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms


** **
Ok, I'll bite first.

Oracle Forms/VB are true 4GL's (Generation Language) and Remedy can be
viewed as '4 and half' GL. The distinction that I make is the granularity
of control the developer has. With a 4GL you have complete control of the
environment. That control comes with a cost. The cost is longer
development and debugging time. Remedy offers 90% of the control of a 4GL
without the lengthy development time.

That's my 50k foot view.

Peter McMullen
QMX Support Services
Voice: 250.701.3748

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Raj Rajakumar
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:02 AM
To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Remedy Vs VB/Oracle Forms

Hi Listers,
I would appreciate your input to the following question:
"What advantage does Remedy offer in developing an application against using
something like Visual Basic or Oracle Forms."
Thank you for your input.
Raj

UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSList Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org ) ARSList is hosted by QMX SUPPORT
SERVICES at www.QMXS.com This posting was submitted via the Web

UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSList Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org ) ARSList is hosted by QMX SUPPORT
SERVICES at www.QMXS.com This posting was submitted via the Web interface
interface

UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSList Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org ) ARSList is hosted by QMX SUPPORT
SERVICES at www.QMXS.com This posting was submitted via the Web interface

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SERVICES at www.QMXS.com This posting was submitted via the Web interface



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSList Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org (Support:
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www.QMXS.com

I think (at least in an environment like ours, where processes frequently
evolve and change) that a good Remedy implementation SHOULD be
"procedural". We've written, and use, self contained "modules" that can
be called on by any of our Remedy applications, for example to manage
authorisations, email notifications, etc. Applications for these tasks can
easily be designed and implemented "black box" style, with clearly defined
data inputs and a clearly defined end-result or data outputs. That's
procedural, even if it doesn't say so on the tin.

Hard coding every part of the business process, in my opinion, can lead to
vast amounts of work down the line. Remedy to me is a programming
environment without the useless details - you can do pretty much anything
with it, but there's no compiler to throw 500 error messages because you've
dared to put a semicolon in the wrong place.


Jonathan Hall
Remedy Systems Manager
Yell Ltd.






"Fondse, Theo" @ARSLIST.ORG> on
10/02/2003 12:42:15

To: ARSLIST@ARSLIST.ORG
cc:
bcc:
From: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"