Comments?

TD,
I got big discussion with Remedy sales on this. I agree it's not format getting
huge lic. money based on no. of licenses.
You will pay alot more if you have 20 lic. with HD, and some with 2 lic. with
HD.

I also asked them, "none of our users have single question in last two years".
Why we're paying so much money?
We're paying more money for lic. support(which we never used) than app support.
Thanks,
ravi

It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion == :-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

I think if enough of us (ALL OF US) say to Remedy ... "hey guys / gals - enough with the charging of support for licenses"! - then perhaps they may listen.

Ty


-----Original Message-----
From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:34 PM
To: 'tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite there.
It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion == :-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

Mary,
That's exact analogy!
Yo pay more because too many people in your car!
-ravi

I agree totally. If any of my users call Remedy support all they can do
is refer them to me. I got to talk to Larry Garlick about this at RUG
2000 of course he seemed to agree then, took my card and told someone will
get back to me. I haven't heard anything back. All we use is ARS and
build our own apps. There is no way for them to support my users unless
they had access to my server (yeah, right!) or, they had a duplicate
server exactly like mine with all my current def's. With 105 floating
and 63 fixed I can think of a lot of better ways to spend that money.

David Whaley
Sr. Remedy Developer
Global Crossing LTD.


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion
list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Tyrone Dee
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:11 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of money
we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with paying
support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with paying
support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for your
car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

Example:
If you have 300 users, but you can show that only 2 people actually call support (and not that often) they might cut you a break.
They realize that there are some organizations whose number of licenses does not accurately reflect the number of support calls.

No promises, but it's worth a shot.

And remember, your Sales rep may deny this completely or just have no knowledge of such a concept.
Don't give up, move up (the chain of command)


Mark Blankenship


-----Original Message-----
From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@MOTOROLA.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 12:34 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite there.
It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion == :-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

:)

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:37 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


Well said.

I think if enough of us (ALL OF US) say to Remedy ... "hey guys / gals - enough with the charging of support for licenses"! - then perhaps they may listen.

Ty


-----Original Message-----
From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:34 PM
To: 'tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite there.
It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion == :-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

Roger A. Nall
Project Manager
Remedy Administrator
Covista Communication
888-890-7600x7446
rnall@covistacom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Harris, Jim [mailto:jrharris@DREAMWORKS.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:50 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


"hey guys / gals - enough with the charging of support for licenses"!


:)

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:37 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


Well said.

I think if enough of us (ALL OF US) say to Remedy ... "hey guys / gals - enough with the charging of support for licenses"! - then perhaps they may listen.

Ty


-----Original Message-----
From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:34 PM
To: 'tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite there.
It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion == :-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

there support people (or anything in their budget),
they will just increase the support for the servers and admin licenses.
Either way they'll get their money.

My thoughts.
Mary

PS. But I put my "enough is enough" in with you all.


-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@solect.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:37 PM
To: 'Thurber Mary-LMT002'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Well said.

I think if enough of us (ALL OF US) say to Remedy ... "hey guys / gals - enough with the charging of support for licenses"! - then perhaps they may listen.

Ty


-----Original Message-----
From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:34 PM
To: 'tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite there.
It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion == :-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

Actually I kind of look at it in reverse. I understand the pricing structure
where you pay for usage. It allows small shops to use the application without
the price barrier of enormous up front costs and allows them to add licensing as
their organization grows. We're a relatively large shop, with hundreds of
users, so it's probably reasonable that we should pay more than a small company
with a few help desk staff and a couple dozen second/third tier support.

It's just a revenue generator. Someone like Garnter says, "Hey, your product is
underpriced for the market!", and Remedy says, "Well By Golly, we better get us
some different pricing!"

What I don't understand is how they can charge, let alone raise the price for
the application since it is unusable without licensing. It's not like you can
buy ARS and run it without paying for licensing as well. Nor am I thrilled with
licensing each application separately- what a pain administering HD, CM, AM, ARS
licenses!

David C. Kirkpatrick
Sr. Product Administrator
The Regence Group
Portland, OR USA
503.225.6675 (phone)
dckirkp@regence.com


|--------+------------------------->
| | Ravi Bommareddy|
| | | | y@JWT.COM> |
| | |
| | 01/02/2001 |
| | 10:38 AM |
| | Please respond |
| | to "Action |
| | Request System |
| | discussion |
| | list(ARSList)" |
| | |
|--------+------------------------->
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM |
| cc: (bcc: David C Kirkpatrick/BCBSO/TBG) |
| Subject: Re: Support Renewal |
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------|






**

Mary,
That's exact analogy!
Yo pay more because too many people in your car!
-ravi

Never understood the license support fees, but I asked years ago and was told that I couldn't just pay the server support without paying the license support.


Joe Ferguson
Remedy System Administrator
I-Link, Inc.
(801) 576-5033

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Nall [mailto:rnall@COVISTACOM.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:56 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


Does anybody know what the definition of license support is?

David,

I can't imagine how much you guys spending on that many licenses!!!!!!!!!!!

I have two ways to deal with this!
1. Buy your licenses separately,(say 5 and 95 ), buy support for 5 lic. (I
think even this is waste, but we have no option).
Then buy your 95 liecenses with out buyingthe support. Off course REMEDY Corp.
forcing( I talk to remedy) the clients to buy support, but you have to convince
the sales rep.

2. Use the Remedy DB, and build app. with VB, Powerbuilder or ASP, or with any
other tool.

Thanks,
ravi

We have 400 users (110 floation licenses) but it's only two people calling support (2 developers). User support is handled by our internal helpdesk. The last
6 months I have called support 5-6 times.

--
Jarl Groneng
jgroneng@online.no

02.01.2001 13:47:33, Mark Blankenship wrote:

>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:47:33 -0500
> To:m: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COMip@VENIMEX.COM>
> Reply-To: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"
>
> Subject: Re: Support Renewal
> I have heard some talk that Remedy might work with you on the amount paid.
> Example:
>
> If you have 300 users, but you can show that only 2 people actually call
> support (and not that often) they might cut you a break.
> They realize that there are some organizations whose number of licenses
> does not accurately reflect the number of support calls.
>
>
> No promises, but it's worth a shot.
>
> And remember, your Sales rep may deny this completely or just have no
> knowledge of such a concept.
> Don't give up, move up (the chain of command)
>
>
>
> Mark Blankenship
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@MOTOROLA.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 12:34 PM
>
> To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
> Subject: Re: Support Renewal
>
> Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite
> there.
> It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because
> your
> 2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion
> == :-0
>
> Mary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
> To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
> Subject: Support Renewal
>
> We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of
>
> money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with
> paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree
> with paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for
> maintenance for your car everytime you fill up with gas.
>
>
> Comments?
>
>

Other companies, make that almost every other software manufacturer I can think of, charges for new versions. You buy version 6, when 7 comes out, you pay for the new version (possibly a lower-priced upgrade fee).

Remedy GIVES the new versions away and all your prior user licenses apply. When you look at this in terms of per-seat or per-server licensing that other vendors offer, it's an advantage to have them all wrapped into the fees. It's essentially like having an 82% discount on all your upgrade software.

Add to that the fact that Remedy is very generous with the actual software media. You want a demo copy of something, just call them. Try that with, say, PeopleSoft...after they're done laughing you'll be told you have to sign on first, to the tune of several hundred grand possibly, before you even get to see what you're buying. I've used free software to great effect in the past (e.g. setting up an NT ARS server to relay Exchange mail when my main ARS server was on a UNIX platform).

Several times in the past I have purged unnecessary or undeployed Remedy licenses to lower support costs. They're actually quite good about that, as well as shuffling licenses around. I had a customer WAY overbuy user licenses but need a web solution and their Remedy rep was able to transfer the cost of the user licenses to ARWeb. Very cool, and unprecendented in my experience in the industry.

Convenient business practices are expensive for a vendor, but I would think keeping the convenience is more beneficial than stopping paying fees.

Not to mention unlimited(!!) end-user access via read-only licenses. With careful workflow design, you can turn this into a HUGE advantage by allowing self-modifiable tickets via the correct Submitter mode. That type of useage doesn't come completely free either.

Remedy needs to generate revenue, which is reasonable. The only other way of making money from the software is increasing their user base. Given the fierce competition, and the assumption that Remedy has nearly saturated several segments, the revenue starts to dry up. We don't pay the fees, we start paying full price for upgrades. Not a good thing, in my opinion.

With the maintenance fees as they are, it's based on a percentage of what you're currently using and scales much better. Small shops pay less than big shops, and you pay for what you use.

Even if you consider possibly not charging for user licenses, the money would still have to come from somewhere. That would mean higher maintenance on server products. The hypothetical result could be the small/mid-sized shops would get hammered, while the large shops benefit.

Some fictitious numbers, for example:

Small Shop:
1 ARS Server: $12k
10 Fixed Users: $6k
Total: $18k.
Current Support @ 18% = $3240
Server only @ 40% = 4800

Large Shop
1 ARS Server: $12K
100 Fixed Users: $60K
Total: $72K
Current Support @ 18% = $12,960
Server only @ 40% = $4800

As for the tech support, which is arguably of benefit to some folks given the horror stories that cross the list from time to time, I contend that it doesn't matter too much how many people actually call. I would challenge any other *development platform* vendor to actually support their user's custom applications. That is a very big benefit and can get very expensive. I propose that an application designed for 100+ users would, on balance, be significantly more complex than one for 10 users (this is not always true, obviously, but in an actuarial scenario I think it would be). The larger the user base, the more potential for support calls, so the higher the fees.

Besides, if your shop is big enough, you can always just not pay the maintenance and rely on internal talent for troubleshooting. Of course, you lose the benefits of the maintenance upgrades and such, but it's viable in some situations.

All in all, even the most stingy IT departments (and believe me, I worked for the Grand Ebeneezer of them all for a time) recognize the value of periodic upgrades, current support and financially healthy vendors. A price reduction, if it makes sense, is always welcome, but I would be reluctant to support excluding user license fees altogether since it could, quite reasonably, force several undesired changes in the way Remedy does business.

My $.02. :)
Chris Woyton
Sr. System Engineer
Allegiant Technology
http://www.allegiant-tech.com
chris@allegiant-tech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Thurber Mary-LMT002
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:59 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


They will still make their money. If they count on it to pay
there support people (or anything in their budget),
they will just increase the support for the servers and admin licenses.
Either way they'll get their money.

My thoughts.
Mary


PS. But I put my "enough is enough" in with you all.


-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@solect.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:37 PM
To: 'Thurber Mary-LMT002'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Well said.

I think if enough of us (ALL OF US) say to Remedy ... "hey guys / gals - enough with the charging of support for licenses"! - then perhaps they may listen.

Ty


-----Original Message-----
From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:34 PM
To: 'tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite there.
It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion == :-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

What bugs us even further here is that we have in
house apps, so no help from SUpport eith those. Since
we started about 95% of all our support calls have
been because of bugs in the Remedy system!

Is that like buying a warranty on your car because the
manufacturer knows it is faulty?

Hmmmm....

Neil Anderson
Halifax plc (UK)

--- David Whaley wrote: > **
>
> I agree totally. If any of my users call Remedy
> support all they can do
> is refer them to me. I got to talk to Larry Garlick
> about this at RUG
> 2000 of course he seemed to agree then, took my card
> and told someone will
> get back to me. I haven't heard anything back. All
> we use is ARS and
> build our own apps. There is no way for them to
> support my users unless
> they had access to my server (yeah, right!) or, they
> had a duplicate
> server exactly like mine with all my current def's.
> With 105 floating
> and 63 fixed I can think of a lot of better ways to
> spend that money.
>
> David Whaley
> Sr. Remedy Developer
> Global Crossing LTD.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Action Request System discussion
> list(ARSList)
> [mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of
> Tyrone Dee
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:11 AM
> To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
> Subject: Support Renewal
>
>
> We just got our support renewal and I can not
> believe the amount of money
> we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no
> probably with paying
> support for the applications and ARS, but I totally
> disagree with paying
> support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for
> maintenance for your
> car everytime you fill up with gas.
>
> Comments?
>
>

> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email the message "unsubscribe
> arslist" to:


=====
Neil Anderson
Senior Systems Developer, Halifax plc (UK)
Email: disturbed_uk@yahoo.com Mobile: 07785 372821

'This message is attributable to the sender and does not necessarily reflect the view of Halifax Group plc or its subsidiaries'

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

You do have alternatives, this year I'm making the leap. After
investigating options and carefully interviewing customers of alterative
support providers, we're going with RISC Management for support.

On Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:40:04 -0700, David Whaley wrote:

>**
>
>I agree totally. If any of my users call Remedy support all they can do
>is refer them to me. I got to talk to Larry Garlick about this at RUG
>2000 of course he seemed to agree then, took my card and told someone will
>get back to me. I haven't heard anything back. All we use is ARS and
>build our own apps. There is no way for them to support my users unless
>they had access to my server (yeah, right!) or, they had a duplicate
>server exactly like mine with all my current def's. With 105 floating
>and 63 fixed I can think of a lot of better ways to spend that money.
>
>David Whaley
>Sr. Remedy Developer
>Global Crossing LTD.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Action Request System discussion
>list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Tyrone Dee
>Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:11 AM
>To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
>Subject: Support Renewal
>
>
>We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of money
>we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with paying
>support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with paying
>support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for your
>car everytime you fill up with gas.
>
>Comments?
>
>
>

Ok, the issue has been beat to death while I have been sitting on the side line watching the fur fly.

I am in total agreement with Chris's analysis and comments here. Trust me I have been around since the days of Wang and
you folks are getting premium services at a bargain price. What a totally awesome product Remedy has and the flexibility
it offers is unheralded.

I for one would argue that the cost of support is undervalued, benefits vs.. costs, but I am just one voice preaching to the choir.

Enough said, my 2 cents.

Regards…Gidd

Glidden L. Calden
BUOYANT SOLUTIONS, INC.
Remedy ASP Partner


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Chris Woyton
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 3:30 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


I have to disagree with the idea that Remedy should stop charging support fees for user licenses for several reasons.

Other companies, make that almost every other software manufacturer I can think of, charges for new versions. You buy version 6, when 7 comes out, you pay for the new version (possibly a lower-priced upgrade fee).

Remedy GIVES the new versions away and all your prior user licenses apply. When you look at this in terms of per-seat or per-server licensing that other vendors offer, it's an advantage to have them all wrapped into the fees. It's essentially like having an 82% discount on all your upgrade software.

Add to that the fact that Remedy is very generous with the actual software media. You want a demo copy of something, just call them. Try that with, say, PeopleSoft...after they're done laughing you'll be told you have to sign on first, to the tune of several hundred grand possibly, before you even get to see what you're buying. I've used free software to great effect in the past (e.g. setting up an NT ARS server to relay Exchange mail when my main ARS server was on a UNIX platform).

Several times in the past I have purged unnecessary or undeployed Remedy licenses to lower support costs. They're actually quite good about that, as well as shuffling licenses around. I had a customer WAY overbuy user licenses but need a web solution and their Remedy rep was able to transfer the cost of the user licenses to ARWeb. Very cool, and unprecendented in my experience in the industry.

Convenient business practices are expensive for a vendor, but I would think keeping the convenience is more beneficial than stopping paying fees.

Not to mention unlimited(!!) end-user access via read-only licenses. With careful workflow design, you can turn this into a HUGE advantage by allowing self-modifiable tickets via the correct Submitter mode. That type of useage doesn't come completely free either.

Remedy needs to generate revenue, which is reasonable. The only other way of making money from the software is increasing their user base. Given the fierce competition, and the assumption that Remedy has nearly saturated several segments, the revenue starts to dry up. We don't pay the fees, we start paying full price for upgrades. Not a good thing, in my opinion.

With the maintenance fees as they are, it's based on a percentage of what you're currently using and scales much better. Small shops pay less than big shops, and you pay for what you use.

Even if you consider possibly not charging for user licenses, the money would still have to come from somewhere. That would mean higher maintenance on server products. The hypothetical result could be the small/mid-sized shops would get hammered, while the large shops benefit.

Some fictitious numbers, for example:

Small Shop:
1 ARS Server: $12k
10 Fixed Users: $6k
Total: $18k.
Current Support @ 18% = $3240
Server only @ 40% = 4800

Large Shop
1 ARS Server: $12K
100 Fixed Users: $60K
Total: $72K
Current Support @ 18% = $12,960
Server only @ 40% = $4800

As for the tech support, which is arguably of benefit to some folks given the horror stories that cross the list from time to time, I contend that it doesn't matter too much how many people actually call. I would challenge any other *development platform* vendor to actually support their user's custom applications. That is a very big benefit and can get very expensive. I propose that an application designed for 100+ users would, on balance, be significantly more complex than one for 10 users (this is not always true, obviously, but in an actuarial scenario I think it would be). The larger the user base, the more potential for support calls, so the higher the fees.


Besides, if your shop is big enough, you can always just not pay the maintenance and rely on internal talent for troubleshooting. Of course, you lose the benefits of the maintenance upgrades and such, but it's viable in some situations.

All in all, even the most stingy IT departments (and believe me, I worked for the Grand Ebeneezer of them all for a time) recognize the value of periodic upgrades, current support and financially healthy vendors. A price reduction, if it makes sense, is always welcome, but I would be reluctant to support excluding user license fees altogether since it could, quite reasonably, force several undesired changes in the way Remedy does business.

My $.02. :)
Chris Woyton
Sr. System Engineer
Allegiant Technology
http://www.allegiant-tech.com
chris@allegiant-tech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Thurber Mary-LMT002
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:59 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


They will still make their money. If they count on it to pay
there support people (or anything in their budget),
they will just increase the support for the servers and admin licenses.
Either way they'll get their money.

My thoughts.
Mary


PS. But I put my "enough is enough" in with you all.


-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@solect.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:37 PM
To: 'Thurber Mary-LMT002'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Well said.

I think if enough of us (ALL OF US) say to Remedy ... "hey guys / gals - enough with the charging of support for licenses"! - then perhaps they may listen.

Ty


-----Original Message-----
From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:34 PM
To: 'tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite there.
It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion == :-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

Ok, Let me disect what Chris said:
1. Other companies charge for new version
-Remedy's software is in growing stage, so charging for every version is not
worthy. I mean the improvements are minimal.

2. Generous about software media:
-Charging lot on each user and sending 5 bucks media is not generous. You know
how much it cost to copy CD. Microsoft reselllers do the same for free.

3. Remedy rep was able to transfer the cost of the user licenses to ARWeb
-This is good one. But as a new comer, Remedy is more friendly(part of
sales/business tricks). It's like your New car company is more friendlier than
old car company ( Say, GM vs. Daewoo )

4. Not to mention unlimited(!!) end-user access via read-only licenses:
- The concept of Helpdesk support apps. is to submit tickets by any of your
employees. No argument!

5. Remedy needs to generate revenue, which is reasonable:
- Everbody agree. But the way they are doing is NOT FAIR. Same car, diffrerent
charge because I got more kids. When I buying the car, they charged based no. of
kids I have, PLUS they keep charging the support fee on all my kids. I don't see
any other company doing this. yeah, every company charge user lic. but not user
support fee.

6. Small shops pay less than big shops, and you pay for what you use.
- If I drive more miles I'll pay for gas comapny, not to GM.
Take small shop vs. Big shop.

1 year:
small shop pay
cost for one server and one app with 10 lic.(two 5 packs) = 39,000 (12K + 12K +
2x7.5 )
Support cost = 15% of 39K = ~6K

Big shop pay
cost for one server and one app with 200 lic.(forty 5 packs) = 324,000 (12K +
12K + 40x7.5 )
Support cost = 15% of 324K = ~49k

So, it's 6k vs. 49k!
Eventhough big shop paid 324,000 vs. small shop's 39,000 for initial cost, big
shop has to pay 43,000 extra every year!

So, after 5 years
Small shop paid : 39,000 + 30,000( support)
Big shop paid : 324,000 + 295,000 (support)
Which doesn't look fair!!!

I agree remedy has to survive!, But some companies will disappear very soon, if
your cost structure doesn't look logical.
If companies start not to buy the support, It's big loss to Remedy, then Remedy
has to find out another way to generate more rev.
Either Remedy has to face criticism from customers, which is not good for
Remedy.

Thanks,
ravi







Chris Woyton on 01/02/2001 06:30:27 PM

Please respond to "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"


To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
cc: (bcc: Ravi Bommareddy/Det/J Walter Thompson)
Subject: Re: Support Renewal



I have to disagree with the idea that Remedy should stop charging support
fees for user licenses for several reasons.

Other companies, make that almost every other software manufacturer I can
think of, charges for new versions. You buy version 6, when 7 comes out, you
pay for the new version (possibly a lower-priced upgrade fee).

Remedy GIVES the new versions away and all your prior user licenses apply.
When you look at this in terms of per-seat or per-server licensing that
other vendors offer, it's an advantage to have them all wrapped into the
fees. It's essentially like having an 82% discount on all your upgrade
software.

Add to that the fact that Remedy is very generous with the actual software
media. You want a demo copy of something, just call them. Try that with,
say, PeopleSoft...after they're done laughing you'll be told you have to
sign on first, to the tune of several hundred grand possibly, before you
even get to see what you're buying. I've used free software to great effect
in the past (e.g. setting up an NT ARS server to relay Exchange mail when my
main ARS server was on a UNIX platform).

Several times in the past I have purged unnecessary or undeployed Remedy
licenses to lower support costs. They're actually quite good about that, as
well as shuffling licenses around. I had a customer WAY overbuy user
licenses but need a web solution and their Remedy rep was able to transfer
the cost of the user licenses to ARWeb. Very cool, and unprecendented in my
experience in the industry.

Convenient business practices are expensive for a vendor, but I would think
keeping the convenience is more beneficial than stopping paying fees.

Not to mention unlimited(!!) end-user access via read-only licenses. With
careful workflow design, you can turn this into a HUGE advantage by allowing
self-modifiable tickets via the correct Submitter mode. That type of useage
doesn't come completely free either.

Remedy needs to generate revenue, which is reasonable. The only other way of
making money from the software is increasing their user base. Given the
fierce competition, and the assumption that Remedy has nearly saturated
several segments, the revenue starts to dry up. We don't pay the fees, we
start paying full price for upgrades. Not a good thing, in my opinion.

With the maintenance fees as they are, it's based on a percentage of what
you're currently using and scales much better. Small shops pay less than big
shops, and you pay for what you use.

Even if you consider possibly not charging for user licenses, the money
would still have to come from somewhere. That would mean higher maintenance
on server products. The hypothetical result could be the small/mid-sized
shops would get hammered, while the large shops benefit.

Some fictitious numbers, for example:

Small Shop:
1 ARS Server: $12k
10 Fixed Users: $6k
Total: $18k.
Current Support @ 18% = $3240
Server only @ 40% = 4800

Large Shop
1 ARS Server: $12K
100 Fixed Users: $60K
Total: $72K
Current Support @ 18% = $12,960
Server only @ 40% = $4800

As for the tech support, which is arguably of benefit to some folks given
the horror stories that cross the list from time to time, I contend that it
doesn't matter too much how many people actually call. I would challenge any
other *development platform* vendor to actually support their user's custom
applications. That is a very big benefit and can get very expensive. I
propose that an application designed for 100+ users would, on balance, be
significantly more complex than one for 10 users (this is not always true,
obviously, but in an actuarial scenario I think it would be). The larger the
user base, the more potential for support calls, so the higher the fees.

Besides, if your shop is big enough, you can always just not pay the
maintenance and rely on internal talent for troubleshooting. Of course, you
lose the benefits of the maintenance upgrades and such, but it's viable in
some situations.

All in all, even the most stingy IT departments (and believe me, I worked
for the Grand Ebeneezer of them all for a time) recognize the value of
periodic upgrades, current support and financially healthy vendors. A price
reduction, if it makes sense, is always welcome, but I would be reluctant to
support excluding user license fees altogether since it could, quite
reasonably, force several undesired changes in the way Remedy does business.

My $.02. :)
Chris Woyton
Sr. System Engineer
Allegiant Technology
http://www.allegiant-tech.com
chris@allegiant-tech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Thurber Mary-LMT002
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:59 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


They will still make their money. If they count on it to pay
there support people (or anything in their budget),
they will just increase the support for the servers and admin licenses.
Either way they'll get their money.

My thoughts.
Mary

PS. But I put my "enough is enough" in with you all.


-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@solect.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:37 PM
To: 'Thurber Mary-LMT002'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Well said.

I think if enough of us (ALL OF US) say to Remedy ... "hey guys / gals -
enough with the charging of support for licenses"! - then perhaps they may
listen.

Ty

-----Original Message-----
From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:34 PM
To: 'tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite
there.
It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion ==
:-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of
money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with
paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with
paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for
your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

Well, Gidd agrees with me anyway. That's worth something. :)

I can certainly see your point Ravi, however, I just want to point out three
things (in the interests of brevity and not beating the thread to death
(then again, it may be dead already (notice the properly nested parentheses,
can you tell I've been in qualification hell for a while?))).

1. Remedy will either get the money some other way (which will hurt the
mid-market users) or stop doing things the way we like them done. (free
upgrades vis a vis paying for new versions, for example). It's just
reasonable business practices to accommodate the adjustment in their revenue
stream.

2. The car/gas analogy really has to go. :) Too many 3rd party providers for
a car. Dare I offer a different analogy? It's more like having a power
company that gives you "free" electricity after you pay the initial hookup
charges. They then charge per person in your household based on some average
per-person consumption rate. Just remember, Remedy is Enterprise Class (no,
not the starship) software. The big stuff costs money, and lots of it.
Compare with Vantive/PeopleSoft/Peregrin, etc. Remedy's entry costs are
CHEAP, and the current fee method gives some scalability.

MS might give away software like Remedy does, but try hitting them up for
support calls. You buy per-call or per-incident, but either way you buy your
support and it's expensive and offers little flexibility.

3. I have to disagree with the improvement curve in the AR System you
mentioned. In my opinion the 4.x platform is a quantum leap over the older
versions. Yes, it's maturing in a lot of ways, but that is the expensive
part of the process.

Remedy is a fairly smart company, and they might react to the mass of public
opinion. This is why I'm trying to be vocal about this issue. If enough
people do, in fact, complain about the license fees, especially if there are
threats of losing market share, they will change. However, that change will
reasonably force them to change the way they do business, for the worse. I,
for one, with only a few minor complaints, like the way they do things now.

I guess that makes $.04. ;)

Thanks!

Chris Woyton
Sr. System Engineer
Allegiant Technology
http://www.allegiant-tech.com
chris@allegiant-tech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Ravi Bommareddy
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:20 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal




Ok, Let me disect what Chris said:
1. Other companies charge for new version
-Remedy's software is in growing stage, so charging for every version is not
worthy. I mean the improvements are minimal.

2. Generous about software media:
-Charging lot on each user and sending 5 bucks media is not generous. You
know
how much it cost to copy CD. Microsoft reselllers do the same for free.

3. Remedy rep was able to transfer the cost of the user licenses to ARWeb
-This is good one. But as a new comer, Remedy is more friendly(part of
sales/business tricks). It's like your New car company is more friendlier
than
old car company ( Say, GM vs. Daewoo )

4. Not to mention unlimited(!!) end-user access via read-only licenses:
- The concept of Helpdesk support apps. is to submit tickets by any of your
employees. No argument!

5. Remedy needs to generate revenue, which is reasonable:
- Everbody agree. But the way they are doing is NOT FAIR. Same car,
diffrerent
charge because I got more kids. When I buying the car, they charged based
no. of
kids I have, PLUS they keep charging the support fee on all my kids. I don't
see
any other company doing this. yeah, every company charge user lic. but not
user
support fee.

6. Small shops pay less than big shops, and you pay for what you use.
- If I drive more miles I'll pay for gas comapny, not to GM.
Take small shop vs. Big shop.

1 year:
small shop pay
cost for one server and one app with 10 lic.(two 5 packs) = 39,000 (12K +
12K +
2x7.5 )
Support cost = 15% of 39K = ~6K

Big shop pay
cost for one server and one app with 200 lic.(forty 5 packs) = 324,000 (12K
+
12K + 40x7.5 )
Support cost = 15% of 324K = ~49k

So, it's 6k vs. 49k!
Eventhough big shop paid 324,000 vs. small shop's 39,000 for initial cost,
big
shop has to pay 43,000 extra every year!

So, after 5 years
Small shop paid : 39,000 + 30,000( support)
Big shop paid : 324,000 + 295,000 (support)
Which doesn't look fair!!!

I agree remedy has to survive!, But some companies will disappear very soon,
if
your cost structure doesn't look logical.
If companies start not to buy the support, It's big loss to Remedy, then
Remedy
has to find out another way to generate more rev.
Either Remedy has to face criticism from customers, which is not good for
Remedy.

Thanks,
ravi







Chris Woyton on 01/02/2001 06:30:27 PM

Please respond to "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"


To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
cc: (bcc: Ravi Bommareddy/Det/J Walter Thompson)
Subject: Re: Support Renewal



I have to disagree with the idea that Remedy should stop charging support
fees for user licenses for several reasons.

Other companies, make that almost every other software manufacturer I can
think of, charges for new versions. You buy version 6, when 7 comes out, you
pay for the new version (possibly a lower-priced upgrade fee).

Remedy GIVES the new versions away and all your prior user licenses apply.
When you look at this in terms of per-seat or per-server licensing that
other vendors offer, it's an advantage to have them all wrapped into the
fees. It's essentially like having an 82% discount on all your upgrade
software.

Add to that the fact that Remedy is very generous with the actual software
media. You want a demo copy of something, just call them. Try that with,
say, PeopleSoft...after they're done laughing you'll be told you have to
sign on first, to the tune of several hundred grand possibly, before you
even get to see what you're buying. I've used free software to great effect
in the past (e.g. setting up an NT ARS server to relay Exchange mail when my
main ARS server was on a UNIX platform).

Several times in the past I have purged unnecessary or undeployed Remedy
licenses to lower support costs. They're actually quite good about that, as
well as shuffling licenses around. I had a customer WAY overbuy user
licenses but need a web solution and their Remedy rep was able to transfer
the cost of the user licenses to ARWeb. Very cool, and unprecendented in my
experience in the industry.

Convenient business practices are expensive for a vendor, but I would think
keeping the convenience is more beneficial than stopping paying fees.

Not to mention unlimited(!!) end-user access via read-only licenses. With
careful workflow design, you can turn this into a HUGE advantage by allowing
self-modifiable tickets via the correct Submitter mode. That type of useage
doesn't come completely free either.

Remedy needs to generate revenue, which is reasonable. The only other way of
making money from the software is increasing their user base. Given the
fierce competition, and the assumption that Remedy has nearly saturated
several segments, the revenue starts to dry up. We don't pay the fees, we
start paying full price for upgrades. Not a good thing, in my opinion.

With the maintenance fees as they are, it's based on a percentage of what
you're currently using and scales much better. Small shops pay less than big
shops, and you pay for what you use.

Even if you consider possibly not charging for user licenses, the money
would still have to come from somewhere. That would mean higher maintenance
on server products. The hypothetical result could be the small/mid-sized
shops would get hammered, while the large shops benefit.

Some fictitious numbers, for example:

Small Shop:
1 ARS Server: $12k
10 Fixed Users: $6k
Total: $18k.
Current Support @ 18% = $3240
Server only @ 40% = 4800

Large Shop
1 ARS Server: $12K
100 Fixed Users: $60K
Total: $72K
Current Support @ 18% = $12,960
Server only @ 40% = $4800

As for the tech support, which is arguably of benefit to some folks given
the horror stories that cross the list from time to time, I contend that it
doesn't matter too much how many people actually call. I would challenge any
other *development platform* vendor to actually support their user's custom
applications. That is a very big benefit and can get very expensive. I
propose that an application designed for 100+ users would, on balance, be
significantly more complex than one for 10 users (this is not always true,
obviously, but in an actuarial scenario I think it would be). The larger the
user base, the more potential for support calls, so the higher the fees.

Besides, if your shop is big enough, you can always just not pay the
maintenance and rely on internal talent for troubleshooting. Of course, you
lose the benefits of the maintenance upgrades and such, but it's viable in
some situations.

All in all, even the most stingy IT departments (and believe me, I worked
for the Grand Ebeneezer of them all for a time) recognize the value of
periodic upgrades, current support and financially healthy vendors. A price
reduction, if it makes sense, is always welcome, but I would be reluctant to
support excluding user license fees altogether since it could, quite
reasonably, force several undesired changes in the way Remedy does business.

My $.02. :)
Chris Woyton
Sr. System Engineer
Allegiant Technology
http://www.allegiant-tech.com
chris@allegiant-tech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Thurber Mary-LMT002
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:59 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


They will still make their money. If they count on it to pay
there support people (or anything in their budget),
they will just increase the support for the servers and admin licenses.
Either way they'll get their money.

My thoughts.
Mary

PS. But I put my "enough is enough" in with you all.


-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@solect.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:37 PM
To: 'Thurber Mary-LMT002'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Well said.

I think if enough of us (ALL OF US) say to Remedy ... "hey guys / gals -
enough with the charging of support for licenses"! - then perhaps they may
listen.

Ty

-----Original Message-----
From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:34 PM
To: 'tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite
there.
It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion ==
:-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of
money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with
paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with
paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for
your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

One difference between the "car" and the "software" cases :

- the more you use the car, the more it depreciates and the more you pay for maintenance ; therefore, GM (the manufacturer) will make more money by selling its cars to "HUGE" drivers, since these car owners will have to renew their car faster than "LITTLE" drivers ; thus, "HUGE" drivers pay more money to GM than "LITTLE" drivers for a given period of time, for the same car
- this is not true with software ; therefore Remedy (the editor) has decided to charge "HUGE" uses of the software by applying support fees (a % of the number of licences) ; so, as for the car manufacturer, "HUGE" companies pay more money to Remedy than "LITTLE" ones for a given period of time, for the same piece of software

Boris

What about this one :)

I have to Pay 25 bucks for ONE Large Pizza, because I have 5 kids
My neighbour paid 5 bucks for same Large Pizza, because he has 1 kid

-Ravi

Chris,

I agree with you. I've also put it on the list some time ago - the support
is optional (whatever your selsrep could say). Unfortunately, what Remedy
charges per license includes maintenance as well. But you always have the
choice. One time upgrade is 10% of your total license price (at least it get
used to be).

I just want to say, that most of you guys are paying more for db licenses,
desktop licenses, not talking abaut some leading CRM solutions, where the
prices vary between .5 -2 Million $ and the functionality doesn't differ a
lot.

I understand that some of you are disappointed by the quality of the
support, me too. But hey, It's a great product and if you find anything
similar on the market for a better price (including support & maint.) I'd
be suprised.


Nicky Madjarov
Intellico Solutions, Inc.

1507 Hermitage Pk. Dr.
Hermitage, TN 37076
Phone: (615) 883 7591
Mobil : (201) 747 8672
Pager: 2017478672@mobile.att.net
e-mail: nickym@intellicosolutions.net
http://www.intellicosolutions.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Woyton"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


> **
>
> Well, Gidd agrees with me anyway. That's worth something. :)
>
> I can certainly see your point Ravi, however, I just want to point out
three
> things (in the interests of brevity and not beating the thread to death
> (then again, it may be dead already (notice the properly nested
parentheses,
> can you tell I've been in qualification hell for a while?))).
>
> 1. Remedy will either get the money some other way (which will hurt the
> mid-market users) or stop doing things the way we like them done. (free
> upgrades vis a vis paying for new versions, for example). It's just
> reasonable business practices to accommodate the adjustment in their
revenue
> stream.
>
> 2. The car/gas analogy really has to go. :) Too many 3rd party providers
for
> a car. Dare I offer a different analogy? It's more like having a power
> company that gives you "free" electricity after you pay the initial hookup
> charges. They then charge per person in your household based on some
average
> per-person consumption rate. Just remember, Remedy is Enterprise Class
(no,
> not the starship) software. The big stuff costs money, and lots of it.
> Compare with Vantive/PeopleSoft/Peregrin, etc. Remedy's entry costs are
> CHEAP, and the current fee method gives some scalability.
>
> MS might give away software like Remedy does, but try hitting them up for
> support calls. You buy per-call or per-incident, but either way you buy
your
> support and it's expensive and offers little flexibility.
>
> 3. I have to disagree with the improvement curve in the AR System you
> mentioned. In my opinion the 4.x platform is a quantum leap over the
older
> versions. Yes, it's maturing in a lot of ways, but that is the expensive
> part of the process.
>
> Remedy is a fairly smart company, and they might react to the mass of
public
> opinion. This is why I'm trying to be vocal about this issue. If enough
> people do, in fact, complain about the license fees, especially if there
are
> threats of losing market share, they will change. However, that change
will
> reasonably force them to change the way they do business, for the worse.
I,
> for one, with only a few minor complaints, like the way they do things
now.
>
> I guess that makes $.04. ;)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Chris Woyton
> Sr. System Engineer
> Allegiant Technology
> http://www.allegiant-tech.com
> chris@allegiant-tech.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Ravi Bommareddy
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:20 AM
> To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
> Subject: Re: Support Renewal
>
>
>
>
> Ok, Let me disect what Chris said:
> 1. Other companies charge for new version
> -Remedy's software is in growing stage, so charging for every version is
not
> worthy. I mean the improvements are minimal.
>
> 2. Generous about software media:
> -Charging lot on each user and sending 5 bucks media is not generous. You
> know
> how much it cost to copy CD. Microsoft reselllers do the same for free.
>
> 3. Remedy rep was able to transfer the cost of the user licenses to ARWeb
> -This is good one. But as a new comer, Remedy is more friendly(part of
> sales/business tricks). It's like your New car company is more friendlier
> than
> old car company ( Say, GM vs. Daewoo )
>
> 4. Not to mention unlimited(!!) end-user access via read-only licenses:
> - The concept of Helpdesk support apps. is to submit tickets by any of
your
> employees. No argument!
>
> 5. Remedy needs to generate revenue, which is reasonable:
> - Everbody agree. But the way they are doing is NOT FAIR. Same car,
> diffrerent
> charge because I got more kids. When I buying the car, they charged based
> no. of
> kids I have, PLUS they keep charging the support fee on all my kids. I
don't
> see
> any other company doing this. yeah, every company charge user lic. but not
> user
> support fee.
>
> 6. Small shops pay less than big shops, and you pay for what you use.
> - If I drive more miles I'll pay for gas comapny, not to GM.
> Take small shop vs. Big shop.
>
> 1 year:
> small shop pay
> cost for one server and one app with 10 lic.(two 5 packs) = 39,000 (12K +
> 12K +
> 2x7.5 )
> Support cost = 15% of 39K = ~6K
>
> Big shop pay
> cost for one server and one app with 200 lic.(forty 5 packs) = 324,000
(12K
> +
> 12K + 40x7.5 )
> Support cost = 15% of 324K = ~49k
>
> So, it's 6k vs. 49k!
> Eventhough big shop paid 324,000 vs. small shop's 39,000 for initial
cost,
> big
> shop has to pay 43,000 extra every year!
>
> So, after 5 years
> Small shop paid : 39,000 + 30,000( support)
> Big shop paid : 324,000 + 295,000 (support)
> Which doesn't look fair!!!
>
> I agree remedy has to survive!, But some companies will disappear very
soon,
> if
> your cost structure doesn't look logical.
> If companies start not to buy the support, It's big loss to Remedy, then
> Remedy
> has to find out another way to generate more rev.
> Either Remedy has to face criticism from customers, which is not good for
> Remedy.
>
> Thanks,
> ravi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris Woyton on 01/02/2001 06:30:27 PM
>
> Please respond to "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"
>
>
> To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
> cc: (bcc: Ravi Bommareddy/Det/J Walter Thompson)
> Subject: Re: Support Renewal
>
>
>
> I have to disagree with the idea that Remedy should stop charging support
> fees for user licenses for several reasons.
>
> Other companies, make that almost every other software manufacturer I can
> think of, charges for new versions. You buy version 6, when 7 comes out,
you
> pay for the new version (possibly a lower-priced upgrade fee).
>
> Remedy GIVES the new versions away and all your prior user licenses apply.
> When you look at this in terms of per-seat or per-server licensing that
> other vendors offer, it's an advantage to have them all wrapped into the
> fees. It's essentially like having an 82% discount on all your upgrade
> software.
>
> Add to that the fact that Remedy is very generous with the actual software
> media. You want a demo copy of something, just call them. Try that with,
> say, PeopleSoft...after they're done laughing you'll be told you have to
> sign on first, to the tune of several hundred grand possibly, before you
> even get to see what you're buying. I've used free software to great
effect
> in the past (e.g. setting up an NT ARS server to relay Exchange mail when
my
> main ARS server was on a UNIX platform).
>
> Several times in the past I have purged unnecessary or undeployed Remedy
> licenses to lower support costs. They're actually quite good about that,
as
> well as shuffling licenses around. I had a customer WAY overbuy user
> licenses but need a web solution and their Remedy rep was able to transfer
> the cost of the user licenses to ARWeb. Very cool, and unprecendented in
my
> experience in the industry.
>
> Convenient business practices are expensive for a vendor, but I would
think
> keeping the convenience is more beneficial than stopping paying fees.
>
> Not to mention unlimited(!!) end-user access via read-only licenses. With
> careful workflow design, you can turn this into a HUGE advantage by
allowing
> self-modifiable tickets via the correct Submitter mode. That type of
useage
> doesn't come completely free either.
>
> Remedy needs to generate revenue, which is reasonable. The only other way
of
> making money from the software is increasing their user base. Given the
> fierce competition, and the assumption that Remedy has nearly saturated
> several segments, the revenue starts to dry up. We don't pay the fees, we
> start paying full price for upgrades. Not a good thing, in my opinion.
>
> With the maintenance fees as they are, it's based on a percentage of what
> you're currently using and scales much better. Small shops pay less than
big
> shops, and you pay for what you use.
>
> Even if you consider possibly not charging for user licenses, the money
> would still have to come from somewhere. That would mean higher
maintenance
> on server products. The hypothetical result could be the small/mid-sized
> shops would get hammered, while the large shops benefit.
>
> Some fictitious numbers, for example:
>
> Small Shop:
> 1 ARS Server: $12k
> 10 Fixed Users: $6k
> Total: $18k.
> Current Support @ 18% = $3240
> Server only @ 40% = 4800
>
> Large Shop
> 1 ARS Server: $12K
> 100 Fixed Users: $60K
> Total: $72K
> Current Support @ 18% = $12,960
> Server only @ 40% = $4800
>
> As for the tech support, which is arguably of benefit to some folks given
> the horror stories that cross the list from time to time, I contend that
it
> doesn't matter too much how many people actually call. I would challenge
any
> other *development platform* vendor to actually support their user's
custom
> applications. That is a very big benefit and can get very expensive. I
> propose that an application designed for 100+ users would, on balance, be
> significantly more complex than one for 10 users (this is not always true,
> obviously, but in an actuarial scenario I think it would be). The larger
the
> user base, the more potential for support calls, so the higher the fees.
>
> Besides, if your shop is big enough, you can always just not pay the
> maintenance and rely on internal talent for troubleshooting. Of course,
you
> lose the benefits of the maintenance upgrades and such, but it's viable in
> some situations.
>
> All in all, even the most stingy IT departments (and believe me, I worked
> for the Grand Ebeneezer of them all for a time) recognize the value of
> periodic upgrades, current support and financially healthy vendors. A
price
> reduction, if it makes sense, is always welcome, but I would be reluctant
to
> support excluding user license fees altogether since it could, quite
> reasonably, force several undesired changes in the way Remedy does
business.
>
> My $.02. :)
> Chris Woyton
> Sr. System Engineer
> Allegiant Technology
> http://www.allegiant-tech.com
> chris@allegiant-tech.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Thurber Mary-LMT002
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:59 AM
> To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
> Subject: Re: Support Renewal
>
>
> They will still make their money. If they count on it to pay
> there support people (or anything in their budget),
> they will just increase the support for the servers and admin licenses.
> Either way they'll get their money.
>
> My thoughts.
> Mary
>
> PS. But I put my "enough is enough" in with you all.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@solect.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:37 PM
> To: 'Thurber Mary-LMT002'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
> Subject: RE: Support Renewal
>
>
> Well said.
>
> I think if enough of us (ALL OF US) say to Remedy ... "hey guys / gals -
> enough with the charging of support for licenses"! - then perhaps they may
> listen.
>
> Ty
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@motorola.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:34 PM
> To: 'tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
> Subject: RE: Support Renewal
>
>
> Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite
> there.
> It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because
your
> 2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion
==
> :-0
>
> Mary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
> To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
> Subject: Support Renewal
>
>
> We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of
> money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with
> paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with
> paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance
for
> your car everytime you fill up with gas.
>
> Comments?
>
>
>

>

In addition to that analogy is that if I called in to complain (pizza) I
would be switched to three or four people who had no idea what I was talking
about. When someone understood the problem they would have to go back to
lab to recreate the problem and call me back later.

:0)

mick

-----Original Message-----
From: Ravi Bommareddy [mailto:Ravi.Bommareddy@JWT.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:28 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


**

What about this one :)

I have to Pay 25 bucks for ONE Large Pizza, because I have 5 kids
My neighbour paid 5 bucks for same Large Pizza, because he has 1 kid

-Ravi

LOL

Ok, you win...the analogies have conquered. :)

-C

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Ravi Bommareddy
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 11:28 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


**

What about this one :)

I have to Pay 25 bucks for ONE Large Pizza, because I have 5 kids
My neighbour paid 5 bucks for same Large Pizza, because he has 1 kid

-Ravi

That's a bad example. :)

The difference between pizza and Remedy support (I have as many complaints
about Remedy customer service/support as anyone, by the way) is that one is
an item and the other is a service.

Counter example: I pay for a taxicab, it costs a certain amount. It costs
more when I bring a friend along, even if we're going to the same place.
Mind you, it doesn't cost double, it just costs extra.

It isn't fair to compare goods with services in that light.

Aziz Al-Doory
Entuition, Inc.

On Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:28 PM, Ravi Bommareddy
[SMTP:Ravi.Bommareddy@JWT.COM] wrote:
> **
>
> What about this one :)
>
> I have to Pay 25 bucks for ONE Large Pizza, because I have 5 kids
> My neighbour paid 5 bucks for same Large Pizza, because he has 1 kid
>
> -Ravi
>
>
>

Aziz,
One person in Taxi : 20 bucks
Two people in Taxi : 30 bucks
That's Fair!

What unfair is:
The taxi driver taking more money each time you ask him about the address or his
cab's safty feauters.
Also, if you pay for those same questions, if you are with friends or family.

We already paid for two people to the Taxi ??

Hey,

And dont forget when you go to RUG'01 to say

"Larry, we want better support for our bucks" ,

and bring up your case studies based on pizza, cars, electricity, cabs,
banking, public health, best industry practices, etc,

It's just funny. "Larry, why don't you open a pizza place so Remedy will
finally learn what a friendly support/maint. practice should be."

I don't believe anybody on this list can change the issue in your benefit,
but all we can suggest/require changes and Remedy corp is the right place to
address such requests.

Nicky Madjarov
Intellico Solutions, Inc.

1507 Hermitage Pk. Dr.
Hermitage, TN 37076
Phone: (615) 883 7591
Mobil : (201) 747 8672
Pager: 2017478672@mobile.att.net
e-mail: nickym@intellicosolutions.net
http://www.intellicosolutions.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aziz Al-Doory"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


> **
>
> That's a bad example. :)
>
> The difference between pizza and Remedy support (I have as many complaints
> about Remedy customer service/support as anyone, by the way) is that one
is
> an item and the other is a service.
>
> Counter example: I pay for a taxicab, it costs a certain amount. It
costs
> more when I bring a friend along, even if we're going to the same place.
> Mind you, it doesn't cost double, it just costs extra.
>
> It isn't fair to compare goods with services in that light.
>
> Aziz Al-Doory
> Entuition, Inc.
>
> On Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:28 PM, Ravi Bommareddy
> [SMTP:Ravi.Bommareddy@JWT.COM] wrote:
> > **
> >
> > What about this one :)
> >
> > I have to Pay 25 bucks for ONE Large Pizza, because I have 5 kids
> > My neighbour paid 5 bucks for same Large Pizza, because he has 1 kid
> >
> > -Ravi
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

>

If you've got an idea for a revenue model that works better and more fairly than what's there now, I bet they'd be all ears.

Rick Cook
Remedy Consultant
Herrick Douglass Technology Development

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicky Madjarov [ mailto:nickym@EARTHLINK.NET]
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 11:37 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


**

Hey,

And dont forget when you go to RUG'01 to say

"Larry, we want better support for our bucks" ,

and bring up your case studies based on pizza, cars, electricity, cabs,
banking, public health, best industry practices, etc,

It's just funny. "Larry, why don't you open a pizza place so Remedy will
finally learn what a friendly support/maint. practice should be."

I don't believe anybody on this list can change the issue in your benefit,
but all we can suggest/require changes and Remedy corp is the right place to
address such requests.

Nicky Madjarov
Intellico Solutions, Inc.

1507 Hermitage Pk. Dr.
Hermitage, TN 37076
Phone: (615) 883 7591
Mobil : (201) 747 8672
Pager: 2017478672@mobile.att.net
e-mail: nickym@intellicosolutions.net
http://www.intellicosolutions.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aziz Al-Doory"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


> **
>
> That's a bad example. :)
>
> The difference between pizza and Remedy support (I have as many complaints
> about Remedy customer service/support as anyone, by the way) is that one
is
> an item and the other is a service.
>
> Counter example: I pay for a taxicab, it costs a certain amount. It
costs
> more when I bring a friend along, even if we're going to the same place.
> Mind you, it doesn't cost double, it just costs extra.
>
> It isn't fair to compare goods with services in that light.
>
> Aziz Al-Doory
> Entuition, Inc.
>
> On Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:28 PM, Ravi Bommareddy
> [SMTP:Ravi.Bommareddy@JWT.COM] wrote:
> > **
> >
> > What about this one :)
> >
> > I have to Pay 25 bucks for ONE Large Pizza, because I have 5 kids
> > My neighbour paid 5 bucks for same Large Pizza, because he has 1 kid
> >
> > -Ravi
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

>

From our point of view it can seems that we pay a lot of money form 1-2 supportcall a month. But on the other hand, these supportcall create a large amoutof
work for the supportstaff. And I dont find it resonable that other site pay the same amount for 1-2 supportcall a day, even if their are "easy" to resolve.

We pay $90k a year and I dont see that we get value for money....

--
Jarl Groneng
jarl@nextra.com


03.01.2001 11:42:34, Rick Cook wrote:

>
>
>
> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:42:34 -0800
> To:m: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
> Reply-To: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"
>
> Subject: Re: Support Renewal
>
>
> Be sure to bring along a model of what would be fair for all of Remedy's
> customers. With all of the complaining and lamenting I've heard, I think
> the thing that's been most exposed is the difficulty Remedy must have in
> developing a revenue model that isn't unduly burdensome on any segment of
>
> its client base. It's sort of like tax reform, which has been defined as
> "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax that feller behind that tree". It's
> never a gift, just a shift.
>
>
> If you've got an idea for a revenue model that works better and more
> fairly than what's there now, I bet they'd be all ears.
>
>
> Rick Cook
> Remedy Consultant
> Herrick Douglass Technology Development
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicky Madjarov [mailto:nickym@EARTHLINK.NET]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 11:37 AM
> To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
> Subject: Re: Support Renewal
>
>
>
>
> **
>
>
> Hey,
>
>
> And dont forget when you go to RUG'01 to say
>
>
> "Larry, we want better support for our bucks" ,
>
> and bring up your case studies based on pizza, cars, electricity, cabs,
>
> banking, public health, best industry practices, etc,
>
> It's just funny. "Larry, why don't you open a pizza place so Remedy will
>
> finally learn what a friendly support/maint. practice should be."
>
> I don't believe anybody on this list can change the issue in your benefit,
>
>
> but all we can suggest/require changes and Remedy corp is the right place
> to
> address such requests.
>
>
> Nicky Madjarov
> Intellico Solutions, Inc.
>
>
> 1507 Hermitage Pk. Dr.
> Hermitage, TN 37076
> Phone: (615) 883 7591
>
> Mobil : (201) 747 8672
> Pager: 2017478672@mobile.att.net
> e-mail: nickym@intellicosolutions.net
> http://www.intellicosolutions.net
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Aziz Al-Doory"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Support Renewal
>
>
>
>
>
> > **
> >
> > That's a bad example. :)
> >
>
> > The difference between pizza and Remedy support (I have as many
> complaints
> > about Remedy customer service/support as anyone, by the way) is that one
>
> is
>
> > an item and the other is a service.
> >
> > Counter example: I pay for a taxicab, it costs a certain amount. It
> costs
>
> > more when I bring a friend along, even if we're going to the same place.
>
> > Mind you, it doesn't cost double, it just costs extra.
> >
> > It isn't fair to compare goods with services in that light.
>
> >
> > Aziz Al-Doory
> > Entuition, Inc.
> >
>
> > On Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:28 PM, Ravi Bommareddy
> > [SMTP:Ravi.Bommareddy@JWT.COM] wrote:
> > > **
> > >
>
> > > What about this one :)
> > >
> > > I have to Pay 25 bucks for ONE Large Pizza, because I have 5 kids
> > > My neighbour paid 5 bucks for same Large Pizza, because he has 1 kid
>
> > >
> > > -Ravi
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>

I agree they will just get their money some other way. But the unit
cost ought to start going down as you grow. And there is fairness to
consider. Our campus has an Oracle site license and a few other site
licenses.

I was wondering just today why Remedy Corp doesn't offer site licensing
because, along this vein, their Online Customer Support page What's Hot
has a section on Remedy Link for Palm OS:

"... In conjunction with this release, we are also introducing a new
licensing structure - adding site licenses for our larger customers."

This is just the palm stuff but it shows they are in a frame of mind to
do site licenses. I assume pricing structure and scaling is always a
challenge in the IT industry and customer input is part of the process.
Is Remedy following industry common practices or not?

(So, is Remedy out there listening????)

Other thoughts: 1) The support covers updates, not just use of
technical support to answer problems. I guess the larger your user base
the more that should be worth??? Is that what they are thinking? Read
licenses are unlimited... 2) How many problems are due to bugs in the
products? How much do we pay them to help us work with errors in the
software?
--
A. R. Kosch
Special Projects/Analyst

arkosch@ksu.edu
785-532-4933
785-532-5914 fax

Kansas State University
Computing and Network Services
2323 Anderson Ave., Suite 146
Manhattan, KS 66502-2912

Ta,

Nagendra

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, 3 January 2001 5:37 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


Well said.

I think if enough of us (ALL OF US) say to Remedy ... "hey guys / gals - enough with the charging of support for licenses"! - then perhaps they may listen.

Ty


-----Original Message-----
From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:34 PM
To: 'tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite there.
It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion == :-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?

Well, here's my tuppence worth.

Getting into a contractual relationship with any third party is a bit like
getting married. If you don't read the rules carefully before you sign up,
there's no point bitching about it. Every person who has written on this
subject has either personally, or is employed by a company that has signed a
contract with Remedy Corporation or a VAR which states in black and white
what the conditions are. As far as I am aware, the conditions haven't
altered. If you don't like it, don't complain, get a divorce.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Woyton [mailto:bach@PRIMENET.COM]
Sent: 04, January Thursday, 2001 06:53
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


**

Well, Gidd agrees with me anyway. That's worth something. :)

I can certainly see your point Ravi, however, I just want to point out three
things (in the interests of brevity and not beating the thread to death
(then again, it may be dead already (notice the properly nested parentheses,
can you tell I've been in qualification hell for a while?))).

1. Remedy will either get the money some other way (which will hurt the
mid-market users) or stop doing things the way we like them done. (free
upgrades vis a vis paying for new versions, for example). It's just
reasonable business practices to accommodate the adjustment in their revenue
stream.

2. The car/gas analogy really has to go. :) Too many 3rd party providers for
a car. Dare I offer a different analogy? It's more like having a power
company that gives you "free" electricity after you pay the initial hookup
charges. They then charge per person in your household based on some average
per-person consumption rate. Just remember, Remedy is Enterprise Class (no,
not the starship) software. The big stuff costs money, and lots of it.
Compare with Vantive/PeopleSoft/Peregrin, etc. Remedy's entry costs are
CHEAP, and the current fee method gives some scalability.

MS might give away software like Remedy does, but try hitting them up for
support calls. You buy per-call or per-incident, but either way you buy your
support and it's expensive and offers little flexibility.

3. I have to disagree with the improvement curve in the AR System you
mentioned. In my opinion the 4.x platform is a quantum leap over the older
versions. Yes, it's maturing in a lot of ways, but that is the expensive
part of the process.

Remedy is a fairly smart company, and they might react to the mass of public
opinion. This is why I'm trying to be vocal about this issue. If enough
people do, in fact, complain about the license fees, especially if there are
threats of losing market share, they will change. However, that change will
reasonably force them to change the way they do business, for the worse. I,
for one, with only a few minor complaints, like the way they do things now.

I guess that makes $.04. ;)

Thanks!

Chris Woyton
Sr. System Engineer
Allegiant Technology
http://www.allegiant-tech.com
chris@allegiant-tech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Ravi Bommareddy
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:20 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal




Ok, Let me disect what Chris said:
1. Other companies charge for new version
-Remedy's software is in growing stage, so charging for every version is not
worthy. I mean the improvements are minimal.

2. Generous about software media:
-Charging lot on each user and sending 5 bucks media is not generous. You
know
how much it cost to copy CD. Microsoft reselllers do the same for free.

3. Remedy rep was able to transfer the cost of the user licenses to ARWeb
-This is good one. But as a new comer, Remedy is more friendly(part of
sales/business tricks). It's like your New car company is more friendlier
than
old car company ( Say, GM vs. Daewoo )

4. Not to mention unlimited(!!) end-user access via read-only licenses:
- The concept of Helpdesk support apps. is to submit tickets by any of your
employees. No argument!

5. Remedy needs to generate revenue, which is reasonable:
- Everbody agree. But the way they are doing is NOT FAIR. Same car,
diffrerent
charge because I got more kids. When I buying the car, they charged based
no. of
kids I have, PLUS they keep charging the support fee on all my kids. I don't
see
any other company doing this. yeah, every company charge user lic. but not
user
support fee.

6. Small shops pay less than big shops, and you pay for what you use.
- If I drive more miles I'll pay for gas comapny, not to GM.
Take small shop vs. Big shop.

1 year:
small shop pay
cost for one server and one app with 10 lic.(two 5 packs) = 39,000 (12K +
12K +
2x7.5 )
Support cost = 15% of 39K = ~6K

Big shop pay
cost for one server and one app with 200 lic.(forty 5 packs) = 324,000 (12K
+
12K + 40x7.5 )
Support cost = 15% of 324K = ~49k

So, it's 6k vs. 49k!
Eventhough big shop paid 324,000 vs. small shop's 39,000 for initial cost,
big
shop has to pay 43,000 extra every year!

So, after 5 years
Small shop paid : 39,000 + 30,000( support)
Big shop paid : 324,000 + 295,000 (support)
Which doesn't look fair!!!

I agree remedy has to survive!, But some companies will disappear very soon,
if
your cost structure doesn't look logical.
If companies start not to buy the support, It's big loss to Remedy, then
Remedy
has to find out another way to generate more rev.
Either Remedy has to face criticism from customers, which is not good for
Remedy.

Thanks,
ravi







Chris Woyton on 01/02/2001 06:30:27 PM

Please respond to "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"


To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
cc: (bcc: Ravi Bommareddy/Det/J Walter Thompson)
Subject: Re: Support Renewal



I have to disagree with the idea that Remedy should stop charging support
fees for user licenses for several reasons.

Other companies, make that almost every other software manufacturer I can
think of, charges for new versions. You buy version 6, when 7 comes out, you
pay for the new version (possibly a lower-priced upgrade fee).

Remedy GIVES the new versions away and all your prior user licenses apply.
When you look at this in terms of per-seat or per-server licensing that
other vendors offer, it's an advantage to have them all wrapped into the
fees. It's essentially like having an 82% discount on all your upgrade
software.

Add to that the fact that Remedy is very generous with the actual software
media. You want a demo copy of something, just call them. Try that with,
say, PeopleSoft...after they're done laughing you'll be told you have to
sign on first, to the tune of several hundred grand possibly, before you
even get to see what you're buying. I've used free software to great effect
in the past (e.g. setting up an NT ARS server to relay Exchange mail when my
main ARS server was on a UNIX platform).

Several times in the past I have purged unnecessary or undeployed Remedy
licenses to lower support costs. They're actually quite good about that, as
well as shuffling licenses around. I had a customer WAY overbuy user
licenses but need a web solution and their Remedy rep was able to transfer
the cost of the user licenses to ARWeb. Very cool, and unprecendented in my
experience in the industry.

Convenient business practices are expensive for a vendor, but I would think
keeping the convenience is more beneficial than stopping paying fees.

Not to mention unlimited(!!) end-user access via read-only licenses. With
careful workflow design, you can turn this into a HUGE advantage by allowing
self-modifiable tickets via the correct Submitter mode. That type of useage
doesn't come completely free either.

Remedy needs to generate revenue, which is reasonable. The only other way of
making money from the software is increasing their user base. Given the
fierce competition, and the assumption that Remedy has nearly saturated
several segments, the revenue starts to dry up. We don't pay the fees, we
start paying full price for upgrades. Not a good thing, in my opinion.

With the maintenance fees as they are, it's based on a percentage of what
you're currently using and scales much better. Small shops pay less than big
shops, and you pay for what you use.

Even if you consider possibly not charging for user licenses, the money
would still have to come from somewhere. That would mean higher maintenance
on server products. The hypothetical result could be the small/mid-sized
shops would get hammered, while the large shops benefit.

Some fictitious numbers, for example:

Small Shop:
1 ARS Server: $12k
10 Fixed Users: $6k
Total: $18k.
Current Support @ 18% = $3240
Server only @ 40% = 4800

Large Shop
1 ARS Server: $12K
100 Fixed Users: $60K
Total: $72K
Current Support @ 18% = $12,960
Server only @ 40% = $4800

As for the tech support, which is arguably of benefit to some folks given
the horror stories that cross the list from time to time, I contend that it
doesn't matter too much how many people actually call. I would challenge any
other *development platform* vendor to actually support their user's custom
applications. That is a very big benefit and can get very expensive. I
propose that an application designed for 100+ users would, on balance, be
significantly more complex than one for 10 users (this is not always true,
obviously, but in an actuarial scenario I think it would be). The larger the
user base, the more potential for support calls, so the higher the fees.

Besides, if your shop is big enough, you can always just not pay the
maintenance and rely on internal talent for troubleshooting. Of course, you
lose the benefits of the maintenance upgrades and such, but it's viable in
some situations.

All in all, even the most stingy IT departments (and believe me, I worked
for the Grand Ebeneezer of them all for a time) recognize the value of
periodic upgrades, current support and financially healthy vendors. A price
reduction, if it makes sense, is always welcome, but I would be reluctant to
support excluding user license fees altogether since it could, quite
reasonably, force several undesired changes in the way Remedy does business.

My $.02. :)
Chris Woyton
Sr. System Engineer
Allegiant Technology
http://www.allegiant-tech.com
chris@allegiant-tech.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM]On Behalf Of Thurber Mary-LMT002
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 11:59 AM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Re: Support Renewal


They will still make their money. If they count on it to pay
there support people (or anything in their budget),
they will just increase the support for the servers and admin licenses.
Either way they'll get their money.

My thoughts.
Mary

PS. But I put my "enough is enough" in with you all.


-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@solect.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:37 PM
To: 'Thurber Mary-LMT002'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Well said.

I think if enough of us (ALL OF US) say to Remedy ... "hey guys / gals -
enough with the charging of support for licenses"! - then perhaps they may
listen.

Ty

-----Original Message-----
From: Thurber Mary-LMT002 [mailto:M.Thurber@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:34 PM
To: 'tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM'; 'ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM'
Subject: RE: Support Renewal


Must agree on License support fees but the gas analogy isn't quite
there.
It's more like paying 8 times for maintenance for your car because your
2 sisters, 2 brothers, 2 children and the in-laws use it on occasion ==
:-0

Mary

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyrone Dee [mailto:tyrone.dee@SOLECT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 1:11 PM
To: ARSLIST@LISTSERV.VISTAIT.COM
Subject: Support Renewal


We just got our support renewal and I can not believe the amount of
money we have to pay for support on LICENSES. I have no probably with
paying support for the applications and ARS, but I totally disagree with
paying support for LICENSES. That would be like paying for maintenance for
your car everytime you fill up with gas.

Comments?