** I get calls and emails all the time about Remedy jobs because my resume has been on the Internet a very long time and all the search engines have spidered it. A while back when I was aggressive about finding a gig, I kept tweaking my resume until it started showing up as the #1 or #2 link on Yahoo, Google, Excite, etc. so you can imagine the number of calls I got.

Sometimes I get a call from 5 or 6 recruiters (mostly from India) about the same job and sometimes the same recruiter calls me more than once because they forget that they have already called me. I have been called as early/late as 3:00 AM in the morning. In most cases, the rate they offer me is about 30% the rate that the actual employer is willing to pay. The last one I got was for $56 an hour corp to corp (and I pay my own expenses) for a job in Texas and I live in Atlanta. One of their favorite lines is that it is a "long term" project that can go on for a year or more. So, they expect me to leave my family and comfortable home and live in an Extended stay hotel for most of the year while they rack up about $200k a year from my sweat and experience. Not only that, but in some cases and I have seen this happen, the employer pays their bill for your time on time and the staffing /consulting company refuses to pay the consultant. I don't expect recruiters not to make any money at all but I expect it to be at least fair. With all the risk,effort, pain and discomfort associated with being a traveling consultant, I think I should get 80% or more of the rate and the staffing agency should get 20% or less and I believe that is more than fair.
--
-Ibrahim Akar

20060125This posting was submitted with HTML in it

I got into the habit of stating that I would only consider their
offering if they were willing to disclose the direct bill rate and
they were comfortable with 15% of that rate. That filtered just about
all of them out. You would be surprised how many companies will cut
off communications when you require that they disclose the actual bill
rate.

This brings up an interesting point though. What is a fair rate for a
placement firm to receive when placing someone? 15%, 25%, 50%, 75%?
What's everyone's thoughts on this. I am especially interested in
some responses from recruiters that follow this list. How much does
it take to run a placement firm?

Axton Grams

On 2/18/06, Ibrahim Akar wrote:
> ** I get calls and emails all the time about Remedy jobs because my resume
> has been on the Internet a very long time and all the search engines have
> spidered it. A while back when I was aggressive about finding a gig, I kept
> tweaking my resume until it started showing up as the #1 or #2 link on
> Yahoo, Google, Excite, etc. so you can imagine the number of calls I got.
>
> Sometimes I get a call from 5 or 6 recruiters (mostly from India) about the
> same job and sometimes the same recruiter calls me more than once because
> they forget that they have already called me. I have been called as
> early/late as 3:00 AM in the morning. In most cases, the rate they offer me
> is about 30% the rate that the actual employer is willing to pay. The last
> one I got was for $56 an hour corp to corp (and I pay my own expenses) for a
> job in Texas and I live in Atlanta. One of their favorite lines is that it
> is a "long term" project that can go on for a year or more. So, they expect
> me to leave my family and comfortable home and live in an Extended stay
> hotel for most of the year while they rack up about $200k a year from my
> sweat and experience. Not only that, but in some cases and I have seen this
> happen, the employer pays their bill for your time on time and the staffing
> /consulting company refuses to pay the consultant. I don't expect recruiters
> not to make any money at all but I expect it to be at least fair. With all
> the risk,effort, pain and discomfort associated with being a traveling
> consultant, I think I should get 80% or more of the rate and the staffing
> agency should get 20% or less and I believe that is more than fair.
> --
> -Ibrahim Akar
>
> 20060125This posting was submitted
> with HTML in it


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org

**
As much as they can get. In 1995 when a company I was working for got heavy into placement the minimum they wanted was 65% of the bill rate. The logic they used was they had the contact you did not. As the market place got more competitive they went as low as 50/50 however the management team always complained that they were not making money at this percentage. I guess it is all in the overhead needed. The more non-billable employees the higher the percent needed to pay for them.

Roger
20060125This posting was submitted with HTML in it

So as a developer, the position you have to put yourself into is: I
got the name, you got the position; here's what I need if you want to
associate my name with your company.

Public visibility of your knowledge is the best route to get to a
position where you can make those types of demands.


There are many ways to get your name known, and I plan to unveil
something that anyone can freely use to achieve just this in the near
future.


Axton Grams


On 2/18/06, Roger Justice wrote:
> **
> As much as they can get. In 1995 when a company I was working for got heavy
> into placement the minimum they wanted was 65% of the bill rate. The logic
> they used was they had the contact you did not. As the market place got more
> competitive they went as low as 50/50 however the management team always
> complained that they were not making money at this percentage. I guess it is
> all in the overhead needed. The more non-billable employees the higher the
> percent needed to pay for them.
>
> Roger
> 20060125This posting was submitted
> with HTML in it


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org

** The irony of course is that they really don't have the contact. All they usually have is a name and a phone number for a person they've never met and that person has given the data to practically everyone in the world when they expressed a desire to find a resource. If we all tapped in to that network so we had the stranger's name and number, we could probably do them a favor by offering our services at a reasonable rate without the margin. They would save money if we all made the effort to incorporate and learn the lingo.

The other irony I see is that any recruiter that set up a good network for ARS developers to work from home and then offered a discount to their clients could probably land a lot of developers even at the ridiculous margins they want to keep for themselves. Their sales pitch would have to include a line about how they trim incompetence and provide support for quick and reliable contact with the developer (video, audio, email and so on). If they did that, they could undercut their competitors (they would have to in order to get some clients to take the risk) and still make their margins because many of us would go for it to avoid the travel or relocation.


On 2/18/06, Roger Justice wrote:

**
As much as they can get. In 1995 when a company I was working for got heavy into placement the minimum they wanted was 65% of the bill rate. The logic they used was they had the contact you did not. As the market place got more competitive they went as low as 50/50 however the management team always complained that they were not making money at this percentage. I guess it is all in the overhead needed. The more non-billable employees the higher the percent needed to pay for them.


Roger
20060125This posting was submitted with HTML in it




--
-al 20060125This posting was submitted with HTML in it

Some good thoughts. I know I wouldn't mind doing some side work from
home at times.

Axton Grams

On 2/18/06, Alfred Differ wrote:
> ** The irony of course is that they really don't have the contact. All they
> usually have is a name and a phone number for a person they've never met and
> that person has given the data to practically everyone in the world when
> they expressed a desire to find a resource. If we all tapped in to that
> network so we had the stranger's name and number, we could probably do them
> a favor by offering our services at a reasonable rate without the margin.
> They would save money if we all made the effort to incorporate and learn the
> lingo.
>
> The other irony I see is that any recruiter that set up a good network for
> ARS developers to work from home and then offered a discount to their
> clients could probably land a lot of developers even at the ridiculous
> margins they want to keep for themselves. Their sales pitch would have to
> include a line about how they trim incompetence and provide support for
> quick and reliable contact with the developer (video, audio, email and so
> on). If they did that, they could undercut their competitors (they would
> have to in order to get some clients to take the risk) and still make their
> margins because many of us would go for it to avoid the travel or
> relocation.
>
> On 2/18/06, Roger Justice wrote:
> > **
> > As much as they can get. In 1995 when a company I was working for got
> heavy into placement the minimum they wanted was 65% of the bill rate. The
> logic they used was they had the contact you did not. As the market place
> got more competitive they went as low as 50/50 however the management team
> always complained that they were not making money at this percentage. I
> guess it is all in the overhead needed. The more non-billable employees the
> higher the percent needed to pay for them.
> >
> > Roger
> > 20060125This posting was
> submitted with HTML in it
>
>
>
> --
> -al 20060125This posting was
> submitted with HTML in it


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org

Here here to all that has been said above. If you are a permanent developer,
that level of bombardment can be overbearing, but non-response is a good
deterrent. I however am an independant consultant who lives by the contact
by these people so you have to understand that the barrage approach does
work for recruiters in cases like me. That being said, the following things
could be done to improve the relationship between recruiters and Remedy
Professionals:

1. Recruiters: Read my resume. If I integrated Remedy with Peoplesoft a
couple of times 4 years ago, or did an Altiris integration one summer, I
shouldn't be contacted hundreds of times for Peoplesoft implementations, or
Altiris contracts.

2. Recruiters: Again, Read my resume. I also may have already have worked,
or still work at the company you are trying to place.

3. Recruiters: I want to see my resume that you are forwarding to your
customer. Not saying you insert things in that aren't genuine, but its me
you are representing.

4. Recruiters: I am not here to educate you on Remedy. If you have to ask
what it is, how can I ever expect you to understand what skills I might have
to better position myself for work.

5. Recruiters: This is REAL CONTROVERSIAL, and I don't want to offend
anyone, as I know I will. If you are a recruiter in the United States that
speaks little, or no English, and you are placing me for a Remedy project in
the U.S, I might be concerned that either I, or prospective clients might
have a communication gap with you. If you call and leave me a Voicemail, and
the only words of your message I understand are my first name and your phone
number, I will probably not call you back. Its just an unspoken thing that
nobody on this list talks about. Recruiters are salespeople, and the
commodity they are selling is you. It's a hard thing to talk about, but I
wouldn't buy a car, or house from someone I couldn't understand, why would I
risk my career in that same fashion?


Timothy Button
Remedy Systems Consultant
tbutton@remedyconsultant.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Mike McCourt
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 9:24 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: OT: Annoying Recruiters

All ... I know I can't be the only one that gets frustrated with this from
time to time, but I just needed to vent, so please excuse my rant.

I'm sure everyone that has a resume on Monster and even mentions the word
"Remedy" in their resume has probably had someone contact them about these
Remedy positions in Wisconsin, but enough is enough already.

I've currently been contacted close to a dozen times already by various
firms wanting to staff me into this position(s), and normally I would be
flattered by this, but when certain IT solution companies (we'll call them
Company X to project the rights of the ignorant) have every single recruiter
call you, it starts to border on telemarketing. Now ... I can understand if
a second recruiter for Company X accidentally contacts you, but when 4
different recruiters all call you, they're really not recruiters now are
they ... they're more like college kids working through a computerized call
list trying to sell you something.

Now if what Company X has done so far isn't annoying enough, apparently
their recruiters are still struggling with the English language (and it is
their second language), since they don't understand phrases like "NO"
and "I'M NOT INTERESTED", so they go ahead and email you the same job
description that you've already seen on Monster and the ARS list.

Now I'm sure someone is going to read this and wonder why anyone is
complaining about people calling them, trying to give them work, and I'm not
complaining about all recruiters, so please don't take this the wrong way,
since most recruiters I deal with are very courteous professionals, but
there are a couple of firms out there (one based in India and on in the UK
that I've dealt with) that just don't understand the word NO ... and after
you turn them down for the 15th time and asked to be removed from their
calling database, I guess you do the only thing you can and blacklist their
email domain from your mail server and get yourself an air horn for when
they call you :)

OK ... I've gotten this off my chest now, so those that were patient enough
to read my email ... I thank you and hope you have a great weekend.

Mike



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org

**

They hit me again, and this is AFTER I told them that I would not be able to fill the position(s).

James McKenzie


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG]On Behalf Of Mike McCourt
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:24 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: OT: Annoying Recruiters


All ... I know I can't be the only one that gets frustrated with this from
time to time, but I just needed to vent, so please excuse my rant.

I'm sure everyone that has a resume on Monster and even mentions the
word "Remedy" in their resume has probably had someone contact them about
these Remedy positions in Wisconsin, but enough is enough already.

I've currently been contacted close to a dozen times already by various
firms wanting to staff me into this position(s), and normally I would be
flattered by this, but when certain IT solution companies (we'll call them
Company X to project the rights of the ignorant) have every single
recruiter call you, it starts to border on telemarketing. Now ... I can
understand if a second recruiter for Company X accidentally contacts you,
but when 4 different recruiters all call you, they're really not recruiters
now are they ... they're more like college kids working through a
computerized call list trying to sell you something.

Now if what Company X has done so far isn't annoying enough, apparently
their recruiters are still struggling with the English language (and it is
their second language), since they don't understand phrases like "NO"
and "I'M NOT INTERESTED", so they go ahead and email you the same job
description that you've already seen on Monster and the ARS list.

Now I'm sure someone is going to read this and wonder why anyone is
complaining about people calling them, trying to give them work, and I'm
not complaining about all recruiters, so please don't take this the wrong
way, since most recruiters I deal with are very courteous professionals,
but there are a couple of firms out there (one based in India and on in the
UK that I've dealt with) that just don't understand the word NO ... and
after you turn them down for the 15th time and asked to be removed from
their calling database, I guess you do the only thing you can and blacklist
their email domain from your mail server and get yourself an air horn for
when they call you :)

OK ... I've gotten this off my chest now, so those that were patient enough
to read my email ... I thank you and hope you have a great weekend.

Mike


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org

20060125This posting was submitted with HTML in it

**

Mike, Axton, et. al.:

I agree. I got a call from an Indian (person from the country of India) and I could not understand most of what he said and it took FOUR CALLS TO MY MOBILE PHONE before this individual got the idea that I was not interested in moving to Dallas Texas. I had stated that I would relocate on my Monster resume. This means a permenant relocation where the company picks up my costs (and I do not plan on driving a U-Haul with my car on a dolly behind it.) I also received the barrage from the Madison, WI job. Looks like it is going to be a long day if they call again....

James McKenzie


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG]On Behalf Of Mike McCourt
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:24 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: OT: Annoying Recruiters


All ... I know I can't be the only one that gets frustrated with this from
time to time, but I just needed to vent, so please excuse my rant.

I'm sure everyone that has a resume on Monster and even mentions the
word "Remedy" in their resume has probably had someone contact them about
these Remedy positions in Wisconsin, but enough is enough already.

I've currently been contacted close to a dozen times already by various
firms wanting to staff me into this position(s), and normally I would be
flattered by this, but when certain IT solution companies (we'll call them
Company X to project the rights of the ignorant) have every single
recruiter call you, it starts to border on telemarketing. Now ... I can
understand if a second recruiter for Company X accidentally contacts you,
but when 4 different recruiters all call you, they're really not recruiters
now are they ... they're more like college kids working through a
computerized call list trying to sell you something.

Now if what Company X has done so far isn't annoying enough, apparently
their recruiters are still struggling with the English language (and it is
their second language), since they don't understand phrases like "NO"
and "I'M NOT INTERESTED", so they go ahead and email you the same job
description that you've already seen on Monster and the ARS list.

Now I'm sure someone is going to read this and wonder why anyone is
complaining about people calling them, trying to give them work, and I'm
not complaining about all recruiters, so please don't take this the wrong
way, since most recruiters I deal with are very courteous professionals,
but there are a couple of firms out there (one based in India and on in the
UK that I've dealt with) that just don't understand the word NO ... and
after you turn them down for the 15th time and asked to be removed from
their calling database, I guess you do the only thing you can and blacklist
their email domain from your mail server and get yourself an air horn for
when they call you :)

OK ... I've gotten this off my chest now, so those that were patient enough
to read my email ... I thank you and hope you have a great weekend.

Mike


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org

20060125This posting was submitted with HTML in it

**
I want to clarify something else on this subject. During the dark days (Jan 2001 through August 2001) most people got no calls for months on end. People clamoring your your services is one of the best problems you can have. Somewhere, somebody who develops "Application X" is not getting called while we are, so while the lack of information and decorum are annoying, how would you feel when the phone never rang?

Also, and I am not just saying this to backtrack; little or none of this behavior comes from actual BMC Partners. The culprits are the fly-by-night contract firms that pop up and disappear quickly.

Timothy Button
Remedy Systems Consultant
tbutton@remedyconsultant.com





From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList) [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of McKenzie, James J C-E LCMC HQISEC/L3
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 8:49 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Annoying Recruiters


**

Mike, Axton, et. al.:

I agree. I got a call from an Indian (person from the country of India) and I could not understand most of what he said and it took FOUR CALLS TO MY MOBILE PHONE before this individual got the idea that I was not interested in moving to Dallas Texas. I had stated that I would relocate on my Monster resume. This means a permenant relocation where the company picks up my costs (and I do not plan on driving a U-Haul with my car on a dolly behind it.) I also received the barrage from the Madison, WI job. Looks like it is going to be a long day if they call again....

James McKenzie


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG]On Behalf Of Mike McCourt
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:24 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: OT: Annoying Recruiters


All ... I know I can't be the only one that gets frustrated with this from
time to time, but I just needed to vent, so please excuse my rant.

I'm sure everyone that has a resume on Monster and even mentions the
word "Remedy" in their resume has probably had someone contact them about
these Remedy positions in Wisconsin, but enough is enough already.

I've currently been contacted close to a dozen times already by various
firms wanting to staff me into this position(s), and normally I would be
flattered by this, but when certain IT solution companies (we'll call them
Company X to project the rights of the ignorant) have every single
recruiter call you, it starts to border on telemarketing. Now .. I can
understand if a second recruiter for Company X accidentally contacts you,
but when 4 different recruiters all call you, they're really not recruiters
now are they ... they're more like college kids working through a
computerized call list trying to sell you something.

Now if what Company X has done so far isn't annoying enough, apparently
their recruiters are still struggling with the English language (and it is
their second language), since they don't understand phrases like "NO"
and "I'M NOT INTERESTED", so they go ahead and email you the same job
description that you've already seen on Monster and the ARS list.

Now I'm sure someone is going to read this and wonder why anyone is
complaining about people calling them, trying to give them work, and I'm
not complaining about all recruiters, so please don't take this the wrong
way, since most recruiters I deal with are very courteous professionals,
but there are a couple of firms out there (one based in India and on in the
UK that I've dealt with) that just don't understand the word NO ... and
after you turn them down for the 15th time and asked to be removed from
their calling database, I guess you do the only thing you can and blacklist
their email domain from your mail server and get yourself an air horn for
when they call you :)

OK ... I've gotten this off my chest now, so those that were patient enough
to read my email ... I thank you and hope you have a great weekend.

Mike


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org

20060125This posting was submitted with HTML in it
20060125This posting was submitted with HTML in it