I would define 'completely useless', in this case, as:
- Unable to work on any platform except windows
- does not meet the core api conformance levels for odbc, which were
defined in 1992 by the SAG / X/Open CAE Specification: SQL Call-Level
Interface (CLI)
- Doesn't adhere to SQL-92 standards. Missing these key features (and
I can't emphasize the word 'key' enough), according to the SQL-92
standard:
- support for various join features including all provisions for
NATURAL JOIN, INNER JOIN, LEFT OUTER JOIN, RIGHT OUTER JOIN
- support for sub-queries in a CHECK constraint
- support for UNION JOIN and CROSS JOIN
- support for the use of a scalar subquery in any value expression
- support for FULL OUTER JOIN
- support for insert, update, delete, alter, drop, etc. statements;
which could be implemented in a specialized odbc interface for remedy
through the use of the native remedy api
- group by clause
- having clause
- between, in, exists, and unique predicates
- can not be used as a member in queries that involve multiple data
source/odbc providers

See this site for the SQL-92 specification:
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~shadow/sql/sql1992.txt

Despite common belief, odbc is not a M$ specific technology/idea. See
these websites for more information:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/odbc/htm/odbcodbcandthestandardcli.asp
http://www.synergex.com/oll/OnLineLibraryDetail.asp?ID=2288

Axton

On 11/8/05, Jim Fox wrote:
> Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was "what were you trying to do when it
> became 'given' to you that the ODBC drivers are
> almost completely useless".
>
> Joke: Is "almost completely useless" better or worse than "almost useless"?
>
> Mmbridge
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Baker [mailto:jbaker@javasystemsolutions.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 3:54 PM
> To: Jim Fox
> Subject: Re: Remedy ODBC ... Reporting Nightmares
>
>
> Quite simple, I'm writing a set of JDBC drivers to connect any J2EE app
> (including loads of superb reporting tools), to Remedy. They'll also have
> write support, going directly through the API.
>
> They'll also be an awful lot better than the Remedy ODBC drivers given the
> read support will use any JDBC driver of your choice.
>
> Sadly it's an expensive process to develop such drivers ;)
>
>
> John
>
> On Tuesday 08 November 2005 14:33, you wrote:
> > Please give me more info about what you are trying to do.
> >
> > We have successfully used the Remedy ODBC drivers for complex
> > reporting for years. There ARE some quirks and tricks to know to make
> > it easier and more reliable.
> >
> > Fluxman
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> > [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
> > Sent: 11/08/2005 5:11 AM
> > To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> > Subject: Re: Remedy ODBC ... Reporting Nightmares
> >
> >
> > This brings me back to my JDBC posting. Given the ODBC drivers are
> > almost completely useless, and creating views from T tables is not
> > entirely user friendly, perhaps I should finish my JDBC drivers?
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> > Java System Solutions : http://www.javasytemsolutions.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
> --
> John Baker, Java System Solutions. http://www.javasystemsolutions.com
> (m) 077 3639 3822
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>

I don't agree with your definition of 'completely useless'. I use it to get
data out of Remedy into other venues for data mining that avoids the
problems below. That's all I need it for and it is useful to me for that
simply because I get the data formatted as it is in Remedy forms. I look at
Remedy as a GUI and workflow venue not as a data mining venue. For very
large sets of data, I normally either work directly on the underlying
database (Oracle or MSSQL) or bulk move the data from the underlying
database to something more pleasant than Remedy for data mining.

I don't understand why you would fight the stuff below when it is easy to
move the data to compliant venues that one wants and trusts to use for
serious work.

Fluxman

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Axton
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 10:32 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: FW: Remedy ODBC ... Reporting Nightmares


I would define 'completely useless', in this case, as:
- Unable to work on any platform except windows
- does not meet the core api conformance levels for odbc, which were defined
in 1992 by the SAG / X/Open CAE Specification: SQL Call-Level Interface
(CLI)
- Doesn't adhere to SQL-92 standards. Missing these key features (and I
can't emphasize the word 'key' enough), according to the SQL-92
standard:
- support for various join features including all provisions for NATURAL
JOIN, INNER JOIN, LEFT OUTER JOIN, RIGHT OUTER JOIN
- support for sub-queries in a CHECK constraint
- support for UNION JOIN and CROSS JOIN
- support for the use of a scalar subquery in any value expression
- support for FULL OUTER JOIN
- support for insert, update, delete, alter, drop, etc. statements; which
could be implemented in a specialized odbc interface for remedy through the
use of the native remedy api
- group by clause
- having clause
- between, in, exists, and unique predicates
- can not be used as a member in queries that involve multiple data
source/odbc providers

See this site for the SQL-92 specification:
http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~shadow/sql/sql1992.txt

Despite common belief, odbc is not a M$ specific technology/idea. See these
websites for more information:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/odbc/htm/od
bcodbcandthestandardcli.asp
http://www.synergex.com/oll/OnLineLibraryDetail.asp?ID=2288

Axton

On 11/8/05, Jim Fox wrote:
> Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was "what were you trying to do
> when it became 'given' to you that the ODBC drivers are almost
> completely useless".
>
> Joke: Is "almost completely useless" better or worse than "almost
> useless"?
>
> Mmbridge
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Baker [mailto:jbaker@javasystemsolutions.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 3:54 PM
> To: Jim Fox
> Subject: Re: Remedy ODBC ... Reporting Nightmares
>
>
> Quite simple, I'm writing a set of JDBC drivers to connect any J2EE
> app (including loads of superb reporting tools), to Remedy. They'll
> also have write support, going directly through the API.
>
> They'll also be an awful lot better than the Remedy ODBC drivers given
> the read support will use any JDBC driver of your choice.
>
> Sadly it's an expensive process to develop such drivers ;)
>
>
> John
>
> On Tuesday 08 November 2005 14:33, you wrote:
> > Please give me more info about what you are trying to do.
> >
> > We have successfully used the Remedy ODBC drivers for complex
> > reporting for years. There ARE some quirks and tricks to know to
> > make it easier and more reliable.
> >
> > Fluxman
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> > [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
> > Sent: 11/08/2005 5:11 AM
> > To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> > Subject: Re: Remedy ODBC ... Reporting Nightmares
> >
> >
> > This brings me back to my JDBC posting. Given the ODBC drivers are
> > almost completely useless, and creating views from T tables is not
> > entirely user friendly, perhaps I should finish my JDBC drivers?
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> > Java System Solutions : http://www.javasytemsolutions.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
> --
> John Baker, Java System Solutions. http://www.javasystemsolutions.com
> (m) 077 3639 3822
>
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Because I can't use it for what it was intended, reporting. Our
Crystal/BO servers are on unix. Our reporting requirements are more
complex than a single form. Where we can leverage the odbc driver
within the ARUser client is limited because many times the reporting
requirements can not be met by the odbc driver.

We also move the data to a place that is more suited for reporting
because of the reasons listed above, among others.

I ask you, why call it something it's not (an odbc driver)?

Out of curiosity, how do you report on the CMDB? It would seem than
an odbc driver capable of handling the object oriented model of the
cmdb would be appropriate, or should we all plan on devising
workarounds for this as well?

Axton

On 11/8/05, Jim Fox wrote:
> I don't agree with your definition of 'completely useless'. I use it to get
> data out of Remedy into other venues for data mining that avoids the
> problems below. That's all I need it for and it is useful to me for that
> simply because I get the data formatted as it is in Remedy forms. I look at
> Remedy as a GUI and workflow venue not as a data mining venue. For very
> large sets of data, I normally either work directly on the underlying
> database (Oracle or MSSQL) or bulk move the data from the underlying
> database to something more pleasant than Remedy for data mining.
>
> I don't understand why you would fight the stuff below when it is easy to
> move the data to compliant venues that one wants and trusts to use for
> serious work.
>
> Fluxman
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Axton
> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 10:32 PM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: FW: Remedy ODBC ... Reporting Nightmares
>
>
> I would define 'completely useless', in this case, as:
> - Unable to work on any platform except windows
> - does not meet the core api conformance levels for odbc, which were defined
> in 1992 by the SAG / X/Open CAE Specification: SQL Call-Level Interface
> (CLI)
> - Doesn't adhere to SQL-92 standards. Missing these key features (and I
> can't emphasize the word 'key' enough), according to the SQL-92
> standard:
> - support for various join features including all provisions for NATURAL
> JOIN, INNER JOIN, LEFT OUTER JOIN, RIGHT OUTER JOIN
> - support for sub-queries in a CHECK constraint
> - support for UNION JOIN and CROSS JOIN
> - support for the use of a scalar subquery in any value expression
> - support for FULL OUTER JOIN
> - support for insert, update, delete, alter, drop, etc. statements; which
> could be implemented in a specialized odbc interface for remedy through the
> use of the native remedy api
> - group by clause
> - having clause
> - between, in, exists, and unique predicates
> - can not be used as a member in queries that involve multiple data
> source/odbc providers
>
> See this site for the SQL-92 specification:
> http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~shadow/sql/sql1992.txt
>
> Despite common belief, odbc is not a M$ specific technology/idea. See these
> websites for more information:
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/odbc/htm/od
> bcodbcandthestandardcli.asp
> http://www.synergex.com/oll/OnLineLibraryDetail.asp?ID=2288
>
> Axton
>
> On 11/8/05, Jim Fox wrote:
> > Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was "what were you trying to do
> > when it became 'given' to you that the ODBC drivers are almost
> > completely useless".
> >
> > Joke: Is "almost completely useless" better or worse than "almost
> > useless"?
> >
> > Mmbridge
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Baker [mailto:jbaker@javasystemsolutions.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 3:54 PM
> > To: Jim Fox
> > Subject: Re: Remedy ODBC ... Reporting Nightmares
> >
> >
> > Quite simple, I'm writing a set of JDBC drivers to connect any J2EE
> > app (including loads of superb reporting tools), to Remedy. They'll
> > also have write support, going directly through the API.
> >
> > They'll also be an awful lot better than the Remedy ODBC drivers given
> > the read support will use any JDBC driver of your choice.
> >
> > Sadly it's an expensive process to develop such drivers ;)
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Tuesday 08 November 2005 14:33, you wrote:
> > > Please give me more info about what you are trying to do.
> > >
> > > We have successfully used the Remedy ODBC drivers for complex
> > > reporting for years. There ARE some quirks and tricks to know to
> > > make it easier and more reliable.
> > >
> > > Fluxman
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> > > [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
> > > Sent: 11/08/2005 5:11 AM
> > > To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> > > Subject: Re: Remedy ODBC ... Reporting Nightmares
> > >
> > >
> > > This brings me back to my JDBC posting. Given the ODBC drivers are
> > > almost completely useless, and creating views from T tables is not
> > > entirely user friendly, perhaps I should finish my JDBC drivers?
> > >
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > Java System Solutions : http://www.javasytemsolutions.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >
> > --
> > John Baker, Java System Solutions. http://www.javasystemsolutions.com
> > (m) 077 3639 3822
> >
> >
> >
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>

it's always made me chuckle when I look at the remedy datamodel, where
a 'highly normalised' structure is promoted, however when you come to
report on data, because you can't use the relational database as it
was intended, you effectively end up having flatten the entire
datastructure into a single schema to get the data you need.

I don't have the same issues here as Axton does, however I find it
frustrating that the ODBC driver can't even handle Crystal's 'table
linking' functions, having that ability alone would make my life
sooooo much easier (mainly because I hate having to build Remedy join
forms.)

Stephen

On 09/11/05, Axton wrote:
> Because I can't use it for what it was intended, reporting. Our
> Crystal/BO servers are on unix. Our reporting requirements are more
> complex than a single form. Where we can leverage the odbc driver
> within the ARUser client is limited because many times the reporting
> requirements can not be met by the odbc driver.
>
> We also move the data to a place that is more suited for reporting
> because of the reasons listed above, among others.
>
> I ask you, why call it something it's not (an odbc driver)?
>
> Out of curiosity, how do you report on the CMDB? It would seem than
> an odbc driver capable of handling the object oriented model of the
> cmdb would be appropriate, or should we all plan on devising
> workarounds for this as well?
>
> Axton
>
> On 11/8/05, Jim Fox wrote:
> > I don't agree with your definition of 'completely useless'. I use it to get
> > data out of Remedy into other venues for data mining that avoids the
> > problems below. That's all I need it for and it is useful to me for that
> > simply because I get the data formatted as it is in Remedy forms. I look at
> > Remedy as a GUI and workflow venue not as a data mining venue. For very
> > large sets of data, I normally either work directly on the underlying
> > database (Oracle or MSSQL) or bulk move the data from the underlying
> > database to something more pleasant than Remedy for data mining.
> >
> > I don't understand why you would fight the stuff below when it is easy to
> > move the data to compliant venues that one wants and trusts to use for
> > serious work.
> >
> > Fluxman
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> > [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Axton
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 10:32 PM
> > To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> > Subject: Re: FW: Remedy ODBC ... Reporting Nightmares
> >
> >
> > I would define 'completely useless', in this case, as:
> > - Unable to work on any platform except windows
> > - does not meet the core api conformance levels for odbc, which were defined
> > in 1992 by the SAG / X/Open CAE Specification: SQL Call-Level Interface
> > (CLI)
> > - Doesn't adhere to SQL-92 standards. Missing these key features (and I
> > can't emphasize the word 'key' enough), according to the SQL-92
> > standard:
> > - support for various join features including all provisions for NATURAL
> > JOIN, INNER JOIN, LEFT OUTER JOIN, RIGHT OUTER JOIN
> > - support for sub-queries in a CHECK constraint
> > - support for UNION JOIN and CROSS JOIN
> > - support for the use of a scalar subquery in any value expression
> > - support for FULL OUTER JOIN
> > - support for insert, update, delete, alter, drop, etc. statements; which
> > could be implemented in a specialized odbc interface for remedy through the
> > use of the native remedy api
> > - group by clause
> > - having clause
> > - between, in, exists, and unique predicates
> > - can not be used as a member in queries that involve multiple data
> > source/odbc providers
> >
> > See this site for the SQL-92 specification:
> > http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~shadow/sql/sql1992.txt
> >
> > Despite common belief, odbc is not a M$ specific technology/idea. See these
> > websites for more information:
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/odbc/htm/od
> > bcodbcandthestandardcli.asp
> > http://www.synergex.com/oll/OnLineLibraryDetail.asp?ID=2288
> >
> > Axton
> >
> > On 11/8/05, Jim Fox wrote:
> > > Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was "what were you trying to do
> > > when it became 'given' to you that the ODBC drivers are almost
> > > completely useless".
> > >
> > > Joke: Is "almost completely useless" better or worse than "almost
> > > useless"?
> > >
> > > Mmbridge
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: John Baker [mailto:jbaker@javasystemsolutions.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 3:54 PM
> > > To: Jim Fox
> > > Subject: Re: Remedy ODBC ... Reporting Nightmares
> > >
> > >
> > > Quite simple, I'm writing a set of JDBC drivers to connect any J2EE
> > > app (including loads of superb reporting tools), to Remedy. They'll
> > > also have write support, going directly through the API.
> > >
> > > They'll also be an awful lot better than the Remedy ODBC drivers given
> > > the read support will use any JDBC driver of your choice.
> > >
> > > Sadly it's an expensive process to develop such drivers ;)
> > >
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > On Tuesday 08 November 2005 14:33, you wrote:
> > > > Please give me more info about what you are trying to do.
> > > >
> > > > We have successfully used the Remedy ODBC drivers for complex
> > > > reporting for years. There ARE some quirks and tricks to know to
> > > > make it easier and more reliable.
> > > >
> > > > Fluxman
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> > > > [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of John Baker
> > > > Sent: 11/08/2005 5:11 AM
> > > > To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> > > > Subject: Re: Remedy ODBC ... Reporting Nightmares
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This brings me back to my JDBC posting. Given the ODBC drivers are
> > > > almost completely useless, and creating views from T tables is not
> > > > entirely user friendly, perhaps I should finish my JDBC drivers?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > Java System Solutions : http://www.javasytemsolutions.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > > > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> > >
> > > --
> > > John Baker, Java System Solutions. http://www.javasystemsolutions.com
> > > (m) 077 3639 3822
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> > >
> >
> >
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >
>


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

I agree; "Normalisation" is a word you can not use in the same sentence as
"AR System".

I want some JDBC drivers that allow me to connect ARS to Jasper Reports,
BIRT (part of Eclipse) and other 'modern reporting tools' - not only are
they modern, but they are free. Just look at the BIRT report designer;
doesn't it just make you cry that they have done such a good job, without
being funded through extortionate licensing agreements? :)


John

Java System Solutions : http://www.javasystemsolutions.com


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)