Fellow Remedy Developers

I would like to get some professional advice on how
best to handle a certain situation that has developed
within the group I work with. I have discovered that
one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
certification program. I found out this information
by chance while obtaining course information on the
RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
According to their database, the individual has taken
all required courses, but failed both the original and
re-take certification tests.

The problem is further compounded as the employee
consistently informs newly hired managers within our
company of his completed certification status. Our
Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
"certification" to the rest of the department for
congratulations. Considering the potentially
embarrassing situation this will create with my own
managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
anyone within Remedy's Education department be
informed of this?

Remedy Anonymous
Senior Remedy Developer



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You either blow the whistle or don't. You can't exactly finger this
person in a 'nice' way can you? And you can't ask them quietly to
rectify the situation, as it is obviously past the point where they can
discretely 'adjust' the misconception they have created.

Obviously you could use the anonymous account you set up to make this
post, to alert your managers - but are you happy to leave it alone after
that if they do nothing?

A pretty common moral expectation is being violated here - but there are
the 'rules' and then there are always the specific circumstances 'on the
ground' so to speak. Is this person doing soild work, or are they crap
at what they do? Do they have a family? Etc. 'Outing' them - ie., taking
the radical step of publishing their name to this list for example, is
an extreme action in terms of the potential consequences to their
career. Oft evil is done in defence of the good.

Good luck.

Ric Phillips
Melbourne



-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Anonymous Remedy
Sent: Tuesday, 5 April 2005 10:05 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Fellow Remedy Developers

I would like to get some professional advice on how best to handle a
certain situation that has developed within the group I work with. I
have discovered that one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to
have completed the Remedy Skilled Professional certification program. I
found out this information by chance while obtaining course information
on the RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
According to their database, the individual has taken all required
courses, but failed both the original and re-take certification tests.

The problem is further compounded as the employee consistently
informs newly hired managers within our company of his completed
certification status. Our Assistant Director has also announced the
employee's "certification" to the rest of the department for
congratulations. Considering the potentially embarrassing situation
this will create with my own managers, I would enjoy some advice on how
best to proceed with this information. Furthermore, should anyone
within Remedy's Education department be informed of this?

Remedy Anonymous
Senior Remedy Developer



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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)


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RemedyAnon:

You will have to forgive me if I speak plainly and to the point. I am not
going to waste my time or yours trying to sugar-coat the situation or
pretty-up any of the items surrounding it. It is simply not in my nature
to do so.

There are some things in this life that you simply don't do. Blowing smoke
up someones wazoo is on the list. Sure, you can pull someone leg, and joke
a bit - that's one thing. Lying plain-faced though ones teeth for the
purpose of financial, or status gain is another.

A general rule of thumb - don't do anything during the day that you are
gonna have trouble sleeping with that night. It is a simple rule. I don't
know why more people don't obey it.

If your coworker has convinced everyone that he/she is RSP certified, and
is not so, then they have decided to cross a line, and in the process,
done you and the other members of your group a disservice - not to mention
those good people who actually are certified and worked hard to get there.

You and yours have been wronged - plain and simple.

Since your asking for advice, I will give you mine: fry 'em. Don't waste
the time trying to be politically correct. Don't try to construct some
sort of bull story to cover someone else's tail cause you will only
get yourself a part of something that you don't want. Just tell the truth
and present the facts for what they are. This person knew what they were
getting themselves into when the did the deed and they cannot expect not
to have to pay the fiddler at the end of the tune.

There comes a point in time when enough is enough and you have to stand up
and say no more - this far, no further. My question to you would be - are
you there yet?

Think about it, and pray about it; Then put on your boots and go get some.


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(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Anonymous,

Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
do think that the method you described for getting someone else's test
scores is a bit.... disappointing.

To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.

I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.

If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
repay the expense due to a failure.)


Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that has
passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.

If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own pocket,
then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
the class or not.


And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
least review their internal policies on such matters.

The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will only
push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach them
what they are striving to learn.

I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
"ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
you were unable to complete reading the book.)


And while we are on the topic...

Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
(BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
certification names change.)

--
Carey Matthew Black
Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)

Solution = People + Process + Tools
Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.

http://www.fellowshipchurch.com

On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> Fellow Remedy Developers
>
> I would like to get some professional advice on how
> best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> within the group I work with. I have discovered that
> one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
> completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> certification program. I found out this information
> by chance while obtaining course information on the
> RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
> According to their database, the individual has taken
> all required courses, but failed both the original and
> re-take certification tests.
>
> The problem is further compounded as the employee
> consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> company of his completed certification status. Our
> Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
> "certification" to the rest of the department for
> congratulations. Considering the potentially
> embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
> proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
> anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> informed of this?
>
> Remedy Anonymous
> Senior Remedy Developer


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
throw in my two cents here....

I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but this
is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on a
daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is without
sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes we
get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in an
Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.

Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
have your ducks in a row.

Warren

On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black wrote:
> Anonymous,
>
> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's test
> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
>
> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
>
> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
>
> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
> repay the expense due to a failure.)
>
> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that has
> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
>
> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own pocket,
> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
> the class or not.
>
> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
> least review their internal policies on such matters.
>
> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will only
> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach them
> what they are striving to learn.
>
> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
>
> And while we are on the topic...
>
> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
> certification names change.)
>
> --
> Carey Matthew Black
> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
>
> Solution = People + Process + Tools
> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
>
> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
>
> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> > Fellow Remedy Developers
> >
> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> > certification program. I found out this information
> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
> > According to their database, the individual has taken
> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
> > re-take certification tests.
> >
> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> > company of his completed certification status. Our
> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> > informed of this?
> >
> > Remedy Anonymous
> > Senior Remedy Developer
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


--
Warren R. Baltimore II
Remedy Developer
UW Medicine IT Services
School of Medicine
University of Washington
Box 358220
1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
Seattle, WA 98101
Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
V: 206-543-7392
F: 206-221-4745

The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
own.


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

"I would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that they
understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no intention of
using the information. Tell them that you are just hopeful that they will
find a way themselves to "right" the problem."

I agree. I would go to him and work with him to correct the issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Baltimore [mailto:warrenbaltimore@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:25 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
throw in my two cents here....

I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but this
is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on a
daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is without
sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes we
get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in an
Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.

Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
have your ducks in a row.

Warren

On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black wrote:
> Anonymous,
>
> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's test
> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
>
> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
>
> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
>
> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
> repay the expense due to a failure.)
>
> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that has
> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
>
> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own pocket,
> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
> the class or not.
>
> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
> least review their internal policies on such matters.
>
> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will only
> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach them
> what they are striving to learn.
>
> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
>
> And while we are on the topic...
>
> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
> certification names change.)
>
> --
> Carey Matthew Black
> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
>
> Solution = People + Process + Tools
> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
>
> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
>
> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> > Fellow Remedy Developers
> >
> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> > certification program. I found out this information
> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
> > According to their database, the individual has taken
> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
> > re-take certification tests.
> >
> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> > company of his completed certification status. Our
> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> > informed of this?
> >
> > Remedy Anonymous
> > Senior Remedy Developer
>
>


> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


--
Warren R. Baltimore II
Remedy Developer
UW Medicine IT Services
School of Medicine
University of Washington
Box 358220
1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
Seattle, WA 98101
Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
V: 206-543-7392
F: 206-221-4745

The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
own.



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Good points, Warren - only one quibble. A lie, told intentionally and to gain advantage in some way, to me, is different than a mistake. LIke Matt Black's sigline - I usually try to assume incompetence rather than malice, but that's the difference between a mistake and a lie.

A simple "Dude, if you go around telling people you're RSP when you're not, someone's eventually going to check - what happens to you then?" is probably the best next step. Or maybe if you told him you read something that said more employers are checking certs now, and Remedy is being supportive of that, he might get the message, and appreciate your help.

If something substantial like a promotion's on the line, and he's still lying about it to falsely further his career over others, then further conversations might have to ensue. If he won't listen, then maybe an anonymous dime to his boss, or to HR, might be in order. I would let my actions be driven by his arrogance - if he's repentant after the first conversation, it need go no further. If he wants to up the ante, I'd consider how to play my aces. But Warren's very right - it is not a peril-free journey for you, either.

Rick



From: Warren Baltimore
Sent: Tue 4/5/2005 9:24 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification


Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
throw in my two cents here....

I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but this
is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on a
daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is without
sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes we
get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in an
Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.

Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
have your ducks in a row.

Warren

On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black wrote:
> Anonymous,
>
> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's test
> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
>
> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
>
> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
>
> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
> repay the expense due to a failure.)
>
> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that has
> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
>
> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own pocket,
> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
> the class or not.
>
> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
> least review their internal policies on such matters.
>
> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will only
> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach them
> what they are striving to learn.
>
> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
>
> And while we are on the topic...
>
> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
> certification names change.)
>
> --
> Carey Matthew Black
> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
>
> Solution = People + Process + Tools
> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
>
> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
>
> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> > Fellow Remedy Developers
> >
> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> > certification program. I found out this information
> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
> > According to their database, the individual has taken
> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
> > re-take certification tests.
> >
> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> > company of his completed certification status. Our
> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> > informed of this?
> >
> > Remedy Anonymous
> > Senior Remedy Developer
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


--
Warren R. Baltimore II
Remedy Developer
UW Medicine IT Services
School of Medicine
University of Washington
Box 358220
1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
Seattle, WA 98101
Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
V: 206-543-7392
F: 206-221-4745

The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
own.


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

I would live and let live. Is there even a way to verify the information
you were given by BMC? God forbid you say something and your information
turns out to be incorrect, guess who will be looking foolish and petty
at that point. The only way I would even consider bringing it up is if I
were in direct competition with that individual for a position. In that
case I would address the issue with the individual directly.


>Andy L. Mayfield
>System Operation Specialist
>Alabama Power Company
Office: 8-226-1805


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Covert, Jack
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:34 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

"I would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that they
understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no intention of
using the information. Tell them that you are just hopeful that they
will
find a way themselves to "right" the problem."

I agree. I would go to him and work with him to correct the issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Baltimore [mailto:warrenbaltimore@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:25 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
throw in my two cents here....

I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but this
is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on a
daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is without
sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes we
get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in an
Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.

Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
have your ducks in a row.

Warren

On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black
wrote:
> Anonymous,
>
> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's test
> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
>
> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
>
> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
>
> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
> repay the expense due to a failure.)
>
> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that has
> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
>
> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own pocket,
> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
> the class or not.
>
> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
> least review their internal policies on such matters.
>
> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will only
> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach them
> what they are striving to learn.
>
> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
>
> And while we are on the topic...
>
> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
> certification names change.)
>
> --
> Carey Matthew Black
> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
>
> Solution = People + Process + Tools
> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
>
> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
>
> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> > Fellow Remedy Developers
> >
> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> > certification program. I found out this information
> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
> > According to their database, the individual has taken
> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
> > re-take certification tests.
> >
> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> > company of his completed certification status. Our
> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> > informed of this?
> >
> > Remedy Anonymous
> > Senior Remedy Developer
>
>



> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


--
Warren R. Baltimore II
Remedy Developer
UW Medicine IT Services
School of Medicine
University of Washington
Box 358220
1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
Seattle, WA 98101
Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
V: 206-543-7392
F: 206-221-4745

The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
own.




UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Rick,

No quibbling here, but I consider a lie to be attributable to bad
judgement, ignorance or inattention. I would say lying is pretty bad
judgement.

Not to take away from the action itself. Funny things about the
little lies that are told. They have a way of turning into monsters
that eat all in it's path....

Warren

On Apr 5, 2005 9:46 AM, Rick Cook wrote:
> **
> Good points, Warren - only one quibble. A lie, told intentionally and to
> gain advantage in some way, to me, is different than a mistake. LIke Matt
> Black's sigline - I usually try to assume incompetence rather than malice,
> but that's the difference between a mistake and a lie.
>
> A simple "Dude, if you go around telling people you're RSP when you're not,
> someone's eventually going to check - what happens to you then?" is probably
> the best next step. Or maybe if you told him you read something that said
> more employers are checking certs now, and Remedy is being supportive of
> that, he might get the message, and appreciate your help.
>
> If something substantial like a promotion's on the line, and he's still
> lying about it to falsely further his career over others, then further
> conversations might have to ensue. If he won't listen, then maybe an
> anonymous dime to his boss, or to HR, might be in order. I would let my
> actions be driven by his arrogance - if he's repentant after the first
> conversation, it need go no further. If he wants to up the ante, I'd
> consider how to play my aces. But Warren's very right - it is not a
> peril-free journey for you, either.
>
> Rick
>
>
> From: Warren Baltimore
> Sent: Tue 4/5/2005 9:24 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
>
> Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
'em
> or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
throw in my
> two cents here....

I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a
> look, but this
is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories
> that I was
taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS
> on a
daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is
> without
sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes
> and
choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes
> we
get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
cookie
> jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
people into
> thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
commitments to the
> company, then I would say it's between that
individual and the managers. It
> is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
situation where you must affect the
> livelihood of another in a way
that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a
> former life, I worked in an
Employee Relations office for a large public
> hospital and I saw more
then my fair share of people "doing the right thing"
> for no other
reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family.
> It is
not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying?
> I'd
probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others.
> I
would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know
> if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
they
> understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
intention of
> using the information. Tell them that you are just
hopeful that they will
> find a way themselves to "right" the problem.

Also, from a legal
> standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
decide to say something, you
> run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
have your ducks in a row.

Warren

On
> Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black wrote:
>
> Anonymous,
>
> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not.
> However I
> do think that the method you described for getting someone
> else's test
> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
>
> To be very specific it
> should be very hard to find out who failed a
> test. But it should be easily
> discovered who passed the test.
>
> I guess what I am saying there should be
> a way to verify any
> certification, but not who has taken the test and
> failed. If you ask
> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the
> inability to
> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email
> address
> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough
> for
> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
>
> If
> your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
> reason to
> verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
> terms and
> conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
> repay the expense
> due to a failure.)
>
> Personally, I would hope that someone from your
> company could contact
> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I
> would think that an
> email sent from an address at your company should
> afford a measure of
> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that
> company that has
> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
>
> If however, the
> individual paid for the class our of their own pocket,
> then the company
> should only be able to verify the persons current
> certification (If it
> exists.) and not even be told if the person took
> the class or not.
>
> And
> I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
> individual at
> BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
> failed the test.
> (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
> people who are subscribed
> to the ARSList will read this thread and at
> least review their internal
> policies on such matters.
>
> The point of any training is to teach. That is
> not a simple
> process as we all learn in different ways and at different
> speeds.
> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will
> only
> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach
> them
> what they are striving to learn.
>
> I guess this incident is just
> another reason some one should write an
> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to
> get it published. (Even if it is
> published on their own PC printer. No
> book as ever shamed you because
> you were unable to complete reading the
> book.)
>
> And while we are on the topic...
>
> Anyone want to bet how long
> RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey...
> they have started to re-brand the
> website... I can only imagine it is just
> a matter of time before the
> certification names change.)
>
> --
> Carey
> Matthew Black
> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
> ARS = Action Request
> System(Remedy)
>
> Solution = People + Process + Tools
> Fast, Accurate,
> Cheap.... Pick two.
> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained
> by incompetence.
>
> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
>
> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04
> PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> > Fellow Remedy
> Developers
> >
> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
> >
> best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> > within the group I
> work with. I have discovered that
> > one of my coworkers has been falsely
> claiming to have
> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> >
> certification program. I found out this information
> > by chance while
> obtaining course information on the
> > RSP program from Remedy's Education
> department.
> > According to their database, the individual has taken
> >
> all required courses, but failed both the original and
> > re-take
> certification tests.
> >
> > The problem is further compounded as the
> employee
> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> >
> company of his completed certification status. Our
> > Assistant Director
> has also announced the employee's
> > "certification" to the rest of the
> department for
> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
> >
> embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> > managers, I would
> enjoy some advice on how best to
> > proceed with this information.
> Furthermore, should
> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> >
> informed of this?
> >
> > Remedy Anonymous
> > Senior Remedy Developer
>
>
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support:
> mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


--
Warren R. Baltimore II
Remedy
> Developer
UW Medicine IT Services
School of Medicine
University of
> Washington
Box 358220
1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
Seattle, WA 98101
Office
> E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
V:
> 206-543-7392
F: 206-221-4745

The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in
> no way those of the
University of Washington, or the State of Washington.
> They are
> my
own.


UNSUBSCRIBE
> or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support:
> mailto:support@arslist.org)


> This posting was submitted
> via the Web interface


--
Warren R. Baltimore II
Remedy Developer
UW Medicine IT Services
School of Medicine
University of Washington
Box 358220
1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
Seattle, WA 98101
Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
V: 206-543-7392
F: 206-221-4745

The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
own.


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Remedyanon,

First and foremost, you need to be 100% sure of your information.

No decision should be made in a vacuum - you have told us little about the person. There are a great many factors that should influence how you go about it - while dealing with the person directly may be most honourable, it may not be the best way.

You must also consider the embarrassment/trouble if someone external found this out - if you are a consulting firm then this would be devastating.

I believe that each person should be given a chance, were in your place however, I would likely tell someone of sufficient responsibility/power in writing and allow them to share the burden.

Your choice is not an easy one - either you allow someone to take credit for something not accomplished and cheapen what others have achieved or wreck a person's career.

Best of luck.
Stephen
I do wonder how it is that the company did not follow-up on his/her accreditation.

"Mayfield, Andy L." wrote:
I would live and let live. Is there even a way to verify the information
you were given by BMC? God forbid you say something and your information
turns out to be incorrect, guess who will be looking foolish and petty
at that point. The only way I would even consider bringing it up is if I
were in direct competition with that individual for a position. In that
case I would address the issue with the individual directly.


>Andy L. Mayfield
>System Operation Specialist
>Alabama Power Company
Office: 8-226-1805


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Covert, Jack
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:34 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

"I would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that they
understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no intention of
using the information. Tell them that you are just hopeful that they
will
find a way themselves to "right" the problem."

I agree. I would go to him and work with him to correct the issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Baltimore [mailto:warrenbaltimore@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:25 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
throw in my two cents here....

I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but this
is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on a
daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is without
sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes we
get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in an
Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.

Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
have your ducks in a row.

Warren

On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black
wrote:
> Anonymous,
>
> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's test
> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
>
> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
>
> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
>
> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
> repay the expense due to a failure.)
>
> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that has
> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
>
> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own pocket,
> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
> the class or not.
>
> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
> least review their internal policies on such matters.
>
> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will only
> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach them
> what they are striving to learn.
>
> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
>
> And while we are on the topic...
>
> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
> certification names change.)
>
> --
> Carey Matthew Black
> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
>
> Solution = People + Process + Tools
> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
>
> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
>
> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> > Fellow Remedy Developers
> >
> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> > certification program. I found out this information
> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
> > According to their database, the individual has taken
> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
> > re-take certification tests.
> >
> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> > company of his completed certification status. Our
> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> > informed of this?
> >
> > Remedy Anonymous
> > Senior Remedy Developer
>
>



> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


--
Warren R. Baltimore II
Remedy Developer
UW Medicine IT Services
School of Medicine
University of Washington
Box 358220
1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
Seattle, WA 98101
Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
V: 206-543-7392
F: 206-221-4745

The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
own.




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ARS 5.1.2
Oracel 9i


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People make mistakes. The nice thing is everyone can be forgiven. I would see if there was anyway you could help this person. Maybe you could help them pass the test. It is easy to make enemies and very hard to make a true friend. I think we could all use more friends.

Take care,

Rick

>>> arslistlilly@YAHOO.CA 4/5/2005 12:43:26 PM >>>

** Remedyanon,

First and foremost, you need to be 100% sure of your information.

No decision should be made in a vacuum - you have told us little about the person. There are a great many factors that should influence how you go about it - while dealing with the person directly may be most honourable, it may not be the best way.

You must also consider the embarrassment/trouble if someone external found this out - if you are a consulting firm then this would be devastating.

I believe that each person should be given a chance, were in your place however, I would likely tell someone of sufficient responsibility/power in writing and allow them to share the burden.

Your choice is not an easy one - either you allow someone to take credit for something not accomplished and cheapen what others have achieved or wreck a person's career.

Best of luck.
Stephen
I do wonder how it is that the company did not follow-up on his/her accreditation.

"Mayfield, Andy L." wrote:
I would live and let live. Is there even a way to verify the information
you were given by BMC? God forbid you say something and your information
turns out to be incorrect, guess who will be looking foolish and petty
at that point. The only way I would even consider bringing it up is if I
were in direct competition with that individual for a position. In that
case I would address the issue with the individual directly.


>Andy L. Mayfield
>System Operation Specialist
>Alabama Power Company
Office: 8-226-1805


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Covert, Jack
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:34 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

"I would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that they
understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no intention of
using the information. Tell them that you are just hopeful that they
will
find a way themselves to "right" the problem."

I agree. I would go to him and work with him to correct the issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Baltimore [mailto:warrenbaltimore@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:25 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
throw in my two cents here....

I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but this
is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on a
daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is without
sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes we
get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in an
Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.

Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
have your ducks in a row.

Warren

On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black
wrote:
> Anonymous,
>
> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's test
> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
>
> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
>
> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
>
> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
> repay the expense due to a failure.)
>
> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that has
> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
>
> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own pocket,
> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
> the class or not.
>
> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
> least review their internal policies on such matters.
>
> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will only
> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach them
> what they are striving to learn.
>
> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
>
> And while we are on the topic...
>
> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
> certification names change.)
>
> --
> Carey Matthew Black
> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
>
> Solution = People + Process + Tools
> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
>
> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
>
> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> > Fellow Remedy Developers
> >
> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> > certification program. I found out this information
> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
> > According to their database, the individual has taken
> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
> > re-take certification tests.
> >
> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> > company of his completed certification status. Our
> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> > informed of this?
> >
> > Remedy Anonymous
> > Senior Remedy Developer
>
>



> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


--
Warren R. Baltimore II
Remedy Developer
UW Medicine IT Services
School of Medicine
University of Washington
Box 358220
1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
Seattle, WA 98101
Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
V: 206-543-7392
F: 206-221-4745

The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
own.




UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)



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(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)


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ARS 5.1.2
Oracel 9i

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Andy:

I've been following this thread and I would bring to the attention of the individual that I found out they are not certified due to a review of the records held by Remedy. I would allow that individual a certain amount of time to correct their 'error' (say a week or two.) This gives the person time to 'save face' by stating what they thought (I am certified even if I did not pass the tests or Remedy advised me that I'm certified). If they refuse to correct the situation, then you can take other action. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES, would I directly confront the individual's manager. This can, and usually does, result in an immediate termination. They could state that you were examining the records of an employee where you had no business being there.
If they did not fix it by then, publically, then I would bring this to the attention of Human Relations through an anonymous tip. Advise them what you found and have them recheck with Remedy. It could be that they are indeed RSP certified and they can confirm/deny that certification.

James McKenzie

-----Original Message-----
From: "Mayfield, Andy L."
Sent: Apr 5, 2005 10:58 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: [ARSLIST] Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

I would live and let live. Is there even a way to verify the information
you were given by BMC? God forbid you say something and your information
turns out to be incorrect, guess who will be looking foolish and petty
at that point. The only way I would even consider bringing it up is if I
were in direct competition with that individual for a position. In that
case I would address the issue with the individual directly.


>Andy L. Mayfield
>System Operation Specialist
>Alabama Power Company
Office: 8-226-1805


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Covert, Jack
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:34 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

"I would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that they
understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no intention of
using the information. Tell them that you are just hopeful that they
will
find a way themselves to "right" the problem."

I agree. I would go to him and work with him to correct the issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Baltimore [mailto:warrenbaltimore@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:25 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
throw in my two cents here....

I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but this
is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on a
daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is without
sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes we
get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in an
Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.

Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
have your ducks in a row.

Warren

On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black
wrote:
> Anonymous,
>
> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's test
> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
>
> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
>
> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
>
> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
> repay the expense due to a failure.)
>
> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that has
> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
>
> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own pocket,
> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
> the class or not.
>
> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
> least review their internal policies on such matters.
>
> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will only
> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach them
> what they are striving to learn.
>
> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
>
> And while we are on the topic...
>
> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
> certification names change.)
>
> --
> Carey Matthew Black
> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
>
> Solution = People + Process + Tools
> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
>
> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
>
> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> > Fellow Remedy Developers
> >
> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> > certification program. I found out this information
> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
> > According to their database, the individual has taken
> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
> > re-take certification tests.
> >
> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> > company of his completed certification status. Our
> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> > informed of this?
> >
> > Remedy Anonymous
> > Senior Remedy Developer
>
>



> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


--
Warren R. Baltimore II
Remedy Developer
UW Medicine IT Services
School of Medicine
University of Washington
Box 358220
1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
Seattle, WA 98101
Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
V: 206-543-7392
F: 206-221-4745

The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
own.




UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)



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I don't mean to drag the topic out, but I am not entirely certain that I
understand the position that most of the last few posts have taken. Now
maybe that is just me - maybe I am not as tolerant of this sort of
behavior (maybe it is a character flaw of mine) but, I am a little
confused. Help me out here?

WARNING - The next few paragraphs are a statement of my personal opinion
and are pretty pointed. You may skip them if you wish.

May I make an observation? The last few posts that I have seen have all
been almost understanding of this. Now that is bit scary to me. It seems
that there is some hesitation around actually dealing with the situation
because of the side effects that it might have. This is saddening.

If you have accurate information - I mean (and this should go without
saying in the first place), if you know that this person has failed the
test and is claiming to have passed - and you have confirmed this somehow
with some authority (such as the training provider), then why would you
not take action? I am afraid that I don't understand that part. If you
bombed the test - say so. If you passed - say so.

Now there are a couple of ways that you could do this. You could go the
anonymous route and send an email from an account such as the one from
Yahoo that you are using and explain the situation to your manager or an
HR rep, or you could go the direct route (my preferred method) and ask the
guy directly. You might start the conversation out with - "Hey, I was
checking out the list of certified people and you don't appear to be on
it. What gives? Do you think that this is a mistake, or what do you think
might have happened here?"

Remember - if you hire someone on for a job (or bring a consultant in for
a contract), you have the right to request copies of their certifications
as well as any completion certificates which they might have in their
possession that directly apply to the job. How else are you supposed to be
assured that you have the correct person? If you are paying the bucks out
for someone to the job, then you have the right to know that they can do
it, wouldn't you agree?

This should also extend to the consulting houses that you use to fulfill
contracts. If you are paying top dollar for a resource, then you had
better be getting what you are paying for.

Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Sure, there are some grey areas every now
and again, but I would challenge anyone to explain to me in detail how
this would fall into one of them.







> Remedyanon,
>
> First and foremost, you need to be 100% sure of your information.
>
> No decision should be made in a vacuum - you have told us little about the
> person. There are a great many factors that should influence how you go
> about it - while dealing with the person directly may be most honourable,
> it may not be the best way.
>
> You must also consider the embarrassment/trouble if someone external found
> this out - if you are a consulting firm then this would be devastating.
>
> I believe that each person should be given a chance, were in your place
> however, I would likely tell someone of sufficient responsibility/power in
> writing and allow them to share the burden.
>
> Your choice is not an easy one - either you allow someone to take credit
> for something not accomplished and cheapen what others have achieved or
> wreck a person's career.
>
> Best of luck.
> Stephen
> I do wonder how it is that the company did not follow-up on his/her
> accreditation.
>
> "Mayfield, Andy L." wrote:
> I would live and let live. Is there even a way to verify the information
> you were given by BMC? God forbid you say something and your information
> turns out to be incorrect, guess who will be looking foolish and petty
> at that point. The only way I would even consider bringing it up is if I
> were in direct competition with that individual for a position. In that
> case I would address the issue with the individual directly.
>
>
>>Andy L. Mayfield
>>System Operation Specialist
>>Alabama Power Company
> Office: 8-226-1805
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Covert, Jack
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:34 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> "I would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
> know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that they
> understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no intention of
> using the information. Tell them that you are just hopeful that they
> will
> find a way themselves to "right" the problem."
>
> I agree. I would go to him and work with him to correct the issue.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Warren Baltimore [mailto:warrenbaltimore@GMAIL.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:25 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
> 'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
> throw in my two cents here....
>
> I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but this
> is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
> taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on a
> daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is without
> sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
> choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes we
> get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
> cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
> people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
> commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
> individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
> situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
> that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in an
> Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
> then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
> reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
> not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
> probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
> would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
> know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
> they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
> intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
> hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.
>
> Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
> decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
> have your ducks in a row.
>
> Warren
>
> On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black
> wrote:
>> Anonymous,
>>
>> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
>> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's test
>> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
>>
>> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
>> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
>>
>> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
>> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
>> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
>> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
>> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
>> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
>>
>> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
>> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
>> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
>> repay the expense due to a failure.)
>>
>> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
>> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
>> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
>> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that has
>> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
>>
>> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own pocket,
>> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
>> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
>> the class or not.
>>
>> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
>> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
>> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
>> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
>> least review their internal policies on such matters.
>>
>> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
>> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
>> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will only
>> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach them
>> what they are striving to learn.
>>
>> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
>> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
>> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
>> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
>>
>> And while we are on the topic...
>>
>> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
>> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
>> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
>> certification names change.)
>>
>> --
>> Carey Matthew Black
>> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
>> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
>>
>> Solution = People + Process + Tools
>> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
>> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
>>
>> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
>>
>> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
>> > Fellow Remedy Developers
>> >
>> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
>> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
>> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
>> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
>> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
>> > certification program. I found out this information
>> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
>> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
>> > According to their database, the individual has taken
>> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
>> > re-take certification tests.
>> >
>> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
>> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
>> > company of his completed certification status. Our
>> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
>> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
>> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
>> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
>> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
>> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
>> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
>> > informed of this?
>> >
>> > Remedy Anonymous
>> > Senior Remedy Developer
>>
>>
>
>
>
>> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
>> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>>
>
>
> --
> Warren R. Baltimore II
> Remedy Developer
> UW Medicine IT Services
> School of Medicine
> University of Washington
> Box 358220
> 1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
> Seattle, WA 98101
> Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
> Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
> V: 206-543-7392
> F: 206-221-4745
>
> The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
> University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
> own.
>
>
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>
>
> ARS 5.1.2
> Oracel 9i
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


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(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Whenever I completed a class or certification I always turned in a
copy of the certificate to be kept in my file. Seems like a slight
management process issue for not doing that if the employee doesn't
volunteer it.

When applying for a new job (or during consulting period of time) I
provided copies of certificates for review without being asked for
them.

I'm pretty well in Will's camp of thinking. It would bug the ---- out
of me knowing that this situation exists and do nothing. BUT, I would
hope I'd be smart enough to get something in writing from the source
that backs up the accusation. I believe in the direct approach to the
person in question, don't be a wimp. You don't have to be mean, there
have been some good approach methods given here. Don't tell anyone
else where you work until you final course of action is decided. You
won't be able to keep the secret (obviously since you've told us), you
need to tell someone totally removed, friend 1000 mi away or your dog.

The opinions that have been expressed here by everyone kind of
translate to the handling of children these days. The gentler, kinder
method that often leads to Nanny 911 scenario of live without
boundaries, or the firmer method that leads to a more truthful path
and a more functional family and an understanding of acceptable
behavior, integrity, and honesty.

Don't get me wrong, we ALL tell lies. I might say I'm interested in a
conversation my husband is carrying on just to be a good wife ... and
I'm sure ALL of you guys might be guilty of what could be called
'justified' falsehoods at times to be more diplomatic ... ok ...
that's a little much ... to eliminate any wifely nagging.

If the person doesn't get the drift from a friendly conversation, then
you have choices to make. Remember though, that person won't be
looking out for you when it comes to consequences and sometimes those
can take a turn that is unexpected. If it's head to head job
competition, then it goes to HR.

Now, we do expect a final report on your decision and the outcome when
you arrive at that action point.

Thanks,
Susan



On Apr 5, 2005 3:05 PM, Will Du Chene wrote:
> I don't mean to drag the topic out, but I am not entirely certain that I
> understand the position that most of the last few posts have taken. Now
> maybe that is just me - maybe I am not as tolerant of this sort of
> behavior (maybe it is a character flaw of mine) but, I am a little
> confused. Help me out here?
>
> WARNING - The next few paragraphs are a statement of my personal opinion
> and are pretty pointed. You may skip them if you wish.
>
> May I make an observation? The last few posts that I have seen have all
> been almost understanding of this. Now that is bit scary to me. It seems
> that there is some hesitation around actually dealing with the situation
> because of the side effects that it might have. This is saddening.
>
> If you have accurate information - I mean (and this should go without
> saying in the first place), if you know that this person has failed the
> test and is claiming to have passed - and you have confirmed this somehow
> with some authority (such as the training provider), then why would you
> not take action? I am afraid that I don't understand that part. If you
> bombed the test - say so. If you passed - say so.
>
> Now there are a couple of ways that you could do this. You could go the
> anonymous route and send an email from an account such as the one from
> Yahoo that you are using and explain the situation to your manager or an
> HR rep, or you could go the direct route (my preferred method) and ask the
> guy directly. You might start the conversation out with - "Hey, I was
> checking out the list of certified people and you don't appear to be on
> it. What gives? Do you think that this is a mistake, or what do you think
> might have happened here?"
>
> Remember - if you hire someone on for a job (or bring a consultant in for
> a contract), you have the right to request copies of their certifications
> as well as any completion certificates which they might have in their
> possession that directly apply to the job. How else are you supposed to be
> assured that you have the correct person? If you are paying the bucks out
> for someone to the job, then you have the right to know that they can do
> it, wouldn't you agree?
>
> This should also extend to the consulting houses that you use to fulfill
> contracts. If you are paying top dollar for a resource, then you had
> better be getting what you are paying for.
>
> Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Sure, there are some grey areas every now
> and again, but I would challenge anyone to explain to me in detail how
> this would fall into one of them.
>
>
> > Remedyanon,
> >
> > First and foremost, you need to be 100% sure of your information.
> >
> > No decision should be made in a vacuum - you have told us little about the
> > person. There are a great many factors that should influence how you go
> > about it - while dealing with the person directly may be most honourable,
> > it may not be the best way.
> >
> > You must also consider the embarrassment/trouble if someone external found
> > this out - if you are a consulting firm then this would be devastating.
> >
> > I believe that each person should be given a chance, were in your place
> > however, I would likely tell someone of sufficient responsibility/power in
> > writing and allow them to share the burden.
> >
> > Your choice is not an easy one - either you allow someone to take credit
> > for something not accomplished and cheapen what others have achieved or
> > wreck a person's career.
> >
> > Best of luck.
> > Stephen
> > I do wonder how it is that the company did not follow-up on his/her
> > accreditation.
> >
> > "Mayfield, Andy L." wrote:
> > I would live and let live. Is there even a way to verify the information
> > you were given by BMC? God forbid you say something and your information
> > turns out to be incorrect, guess who will be looking foolish and petty
> > at that point. The only way I would even consider bringing it up is if I
> > were in direct competition with that individual for a position. In that
> > case I would address the issue with the individual directly.
> >
> >
> >>Andy L. Mayfield
> >>System Operation Specialist
> >>Alabama Power Company
> > Office: 8-226-1805
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> > [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Covert, Jack
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:34 AM
> > To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> > Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
> >
> > "I would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
> > know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that they
> > understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no intention of
> > using the information. Tell them that you are just hopeful that they
> > will
> > find a way themselves to "right" the problem."
> >
> > I agree. I would go to him and work with him to correct the issue.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Warren Baltimore [mailto:warrenbaltimore@GMAIL.COM]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:25 AM
> > To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> > Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
> >
> > Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
> > 'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
> > throw in my two cents here....
> >
> > I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but this
> > is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
> > taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on a
> > daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is without
> > sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
> > choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes we
> > get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
> > cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
> > people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
> > commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
> > individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
> > situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
> > that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in an
> > Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
> > then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
> > reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
> > not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
> > probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
> > would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
> > know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
> > they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
> > intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
> > hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.
> >
> > Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
> > decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
> > have your ducks in a row.
> >
> > Warren
> >
> > On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black
> > wrote:
> >> Anonymous,
> >>
> >> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
> >> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's test
> >> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
> >>
> >> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
> >> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
> >>
> >> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
> >> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
> >> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
> >> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
> >> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
> >> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
> >>
> >> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
> >> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
> >> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
> >> repay the expense due to a failure.)
> >>
> >> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
> >> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
> >> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
> >> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that has
> >> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
> >>
> >> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own pocket,
> >> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
> >> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
> >> the class or not.
> >>
> >> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
> >> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
> >> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
> >> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
> >> least review their internal policies on such matters.
> >>
> >> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
> >> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
> >> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will only
> >> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach them
> >> what they are striving to learn.
> >>
> >> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
> >> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
> >> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
> >> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
> >>
> >> And while we are on the topic...
> >>
> >> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
> >> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
> >> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
> >> certification names change.)
> >>
> >> --
> >> Carey Matthew Black
> >> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
> >> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
> >>
> >> Solution = People + Process + Tools
> >> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
> >> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
> >>
> >> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
> >>
> >> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> >> > Fellow Remedy Developers
> >> >
> >> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
> >> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> >> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
> >> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
> >> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> >> > certification program. I found out this information
> >> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
> >> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
> >> > According to their database, the individual has taken
> >> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
> >> > re-take certification tests.
> >> >
> >> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
> >> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> >> > company of his completed certification status. Our
> >> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
> >> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
> >> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
> >> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> >> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
> >> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
> >> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> >> > informed of this?
> >> >
> >> > Remedy Anonymous
> >> > Senior Remedy Developer
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> >> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Warren R. Baltimore II
> > Remedy Developer
> > UW Medicine IT Services
> > School of Medicine
> > University of Washington
> > Box 358220
> > 1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
> > Seattle, WA 98101
> > Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
> > Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
> > V: 206-543-7392
> > F: 206-221-4745
> >
> > The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
> > University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
> > own.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >
> >
> >
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >
> >
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >
> >
> >
> > ARS 5.1.2
> > Oracel 9i
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
> >
> >
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

My point was this: From what I have read, it was not this persons
responsibility to be checking on other employees records to start with.
He is not 100% sure if the information is correct, he simply has the
word of one employee at BMC (who in my opinion should not be giving out
that information). Who's to say that employee didn't make the error? If
he were the manager I'd say pursue it, but he's not. Going forward at
this point endangers his own employment or at the least his
imagine/reputation with co-workers/managers. Some managers may
appreciate it, while others may despise the fact that you were snooping
on another coworker. My best advise would be that if he did proceed, be
prepared to answer why he was looking in the first place and be very
comfortable with his answer (especially since I assume he cannot verify
100% authenticity of the information).

Andy L. Mayfield
System Operation Specialist
Alabama Power Company
Office: 8-226-1805


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Will Du Chene
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:06 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

I don't mean to drag the topic out, but I am not entirely certain that I
understand the position that most of the last few posts have taken. Now
maybe that is just me - maybe I am not as tolerant of this sort of
behavior (maybe it is a character flaw of mine) but, I am a little
confused. Help me out here?

WARNING - The next few paragraphs are a statement of my personal opinion
and are pretty pointed. You may skip them if you wish.

May I make an observation? The last few posts that I have seen have all
been almost understanding of this. Now that is bit scary to me. It seems
that there is some hesitation around actually dealing with the situation
because of the side effects that it might have. This is saddening.

If you have accurate information - I mean (and this should go without
saying in the first place), if you know that this person has failed the
test and is claiming to have passed - and you have confirmed this
somehow
with some authority (such as the training provider), then why would you
not take action? I am afraid that I don't understand that part. If you
bombed the test - say so. If you passed - say so.

Now there are a couple of ways that you could do this. You could go the
anonymous route and send an email from an account such as the one from
Yahoo that you are using and explain the situation to your manager or an
HR rep, or you could go the direct route (my preferred method) and ask
the
guy directly. You might start the conversation out with - "Hey, I was
checking out the list of certified people and you don't appear to be on
it. What gives? Do you think that this is a mistake, or what do you
think
might have happened here?"

Remember - if you hire someone on for a job (or bring a consultant in
for
a contract), you have the right to request copies of their
certifications
as well as any completion certificates which they might have in their
possession that directly apply to the job. How else are you supposed to
be
assured that you have the correct person? If you are paying the bucks
out
for someone to the job, then you have the right to know that they can do
it, wouldn't you agree?

This should also extend to the consulting houses that you use to fulfill
contracts. If you are paying top dollar for a resource, then you had
better be getting what you are paying for.

Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Sure, there are some grey areas every
now
and again, but I would challenge anyone to explain to me in detail how
this would fall into one of them.







> Remedyanon,
>
> First and foremost, you need to be 100% sure of your information.
>
> No decision should be made in a vacuum - you have told us little about
the
> person. There are a great many factors that should influence how you
go
> about it - while dealing with the person directly may be most
honourable,
> it may not be the best way.
>
> You must also consider the embarrassment/trouble if someone external
found
> this out - if you are a consulting firm then this would be
devastating.
>
> I believe that each person should be given a chance, were in your
place
> however, I would likely tell someone of sufficient
responsibility/power in
> writing and allow them to share the burden.
>
> Your choice is not an easy one - either you allow someone to take
credit
> for something not accomplished and cheapen what others have achieved
or
> wreck a person's career.
>
> Best of luck.
> Stephen
> I do wonder how it is that the company did not follow-up on his/her
> accreditation.
>
> "Mayfield, Andy L." wrote:
> I would live and let live. Is there even a way to verify the
information
> you were given by BMC? God forbid you say something and your
information
> turns out to be incorrect, guess who will be looking foolish and petty
> at that point. The only way I would even consider bringing it up is if
I
> were in direct competition with that individual for a position. In
that
> case I would address the issue with the individual directly.
>
>
>>Andy L. Mayfield
>>System Operation Specialist
>>Alabama Power Company
> Office: 8-226-1805
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Covert, Jack
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:34 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> "I would however consider talking to this individual privately. I
don't
> know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
they
> understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no intention
of
> using the information. Tell them that you are just hopeful that they
> will
> find a way themselves to "right" the problem."
>
> I agree. I would go to him and work with him to correct the issue.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Warren Baltimore [mailto:warrenbaltimore@GMAIL.COM]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:25 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
> 'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
> throw in my two cents here....
>
> I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but this
> is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
> taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on a
> daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is without
> sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
> choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes we
> get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
> cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
> people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
> commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
> individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
> situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
> that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in an
> Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
> then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
> reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
> not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
> probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
> would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
> know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
> they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
> intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
> hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.
>
> Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
> decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
> have your ducks in a row.
>
> Warren
>
> On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black
> wrote:
>> Anonymous,
>>
>> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
>> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's
test
>> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
>>
>> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
>> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
>>
>> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
>> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
>> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
>> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
>> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
>> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
>>
>> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
>> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
>> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
>> repay the expense due to a failure.)
>>
>> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
>> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
>> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
>> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that
has
>> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
>>
>> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own
pocket,
>> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
>> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
>> the class or not.
>>
>> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
>> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
>> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
>> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
>> least review their internal policies on such matters.
>>
>> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
>> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
>> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will
only
>> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach
them
>> what they are striving to learn.
>>
>> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
>> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
>> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
>> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
>>
>> And while we are on the topic...
>>
>> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
>> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
>> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
>> certification names change.)
>>
>> --
>> Carey Matthew Black
>> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
>> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
>>
>> Solution = People + Process + Tools
>> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
>> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
>>
>> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
>>
>> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
>> > Fellow Remedy Developers
>> >
>> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
>> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
>> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
>> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
>> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
>> > certification program. I found out this information
>> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
>> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
>> > According to their database, the individual has taken
>> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
>> > re-take certification tests.
>> >
>> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
>> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
>> > company of his completed certification status. Our
>> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
>> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
>> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
>> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
>> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
>> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
>> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
>> > informed of this?
>> >
>> > Remedy Anonymous
>> > Senior Remedy Developer
>>
>>
>

>
>
>> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
>> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>>
>
>
> --
> Warren R. Baltimore II
> Remedy Developer
> UW Medicine IT Services
> School of Medicine
> University of Washington
> Box 358220
> 1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
> Seattle, WA 98101
> Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
> Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
> V: 206-543-7392
> F: 206-221-4745
>
> The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
> University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
> own.
>
>

>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>

>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>


> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>
>
> ARS 5.1.2
> Oracel 9i
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
>
>


> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>



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Truer words were never spoken Andy! Good answer....

Warren

On Apr 5, 2005 2:29 PM, Mayfield, Andy L. wrote:
> My point was this: From what I have read, it was not this persons
> responsibility to be checking on other employees records to start with.
> He is not 100% sure if the information is correct, he simply has the
> word of one employee at BMC (who in my opinion should not be giving out
> that information). Who's to say that employee didn't make the error? If
> he were the manager I'd say pursue it, but he's not. Going forward at
> this point endangers his own employment or at the least his
> imagine/reputation with co-workers/managers. Some managers may
> appreciate it, while others may despise the fact that you were snooping
> on another coworker. My best advise would be that if he did proceed, be
> prepared to answer why he was looking in the first place and be very
> comfortable with his answer (especially since I assume he cannot verify
> 100% authenticity of the information).
>
> Andy L. Mayfield
> System Operation Specialist
> Alabama Power Company
> Office: 8-226-1805
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Will Du Chene
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:06 PM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> I don't mean to drag the topic out, but I am not entirely certain that I
> understand the position that most of the last few posts have taken. Now
> maybe that is just me - maybe I am not as tolerant of this sort of
> behavior (maybe it is a character flaw of mine) but, I am a little
> confused. Help me out here?
>
> WARNING - The next few paragraphs are a statement of my personal opinion
> and are pretty pointed. You may skip them if you wish.
>
> May I make an observation? The last few posts that I have seen have all
> been almost understanding of this. Now that is bit scary to me. It seems
> that there is some hesitation around actually dealing with the situation
> because of the side effects that it might have. This is saddening.
>
> If you have accurate information - I mean (and this should go without
> saying in the first place), if you know that this person has failed the
> test and is claiming to have passed - and you have confirmed this
> somehow
> with some authority (such as the training provider), then why would you
> not take action? I am afraid that I don't understand that part. If you
> bombed the test - say so. If you passed - say so.
>
> Now there are a couple of ways that you could do this. You could go the
> anonymous route and send an email from an account such as the one from
> Yahoo that you are using and explain the situation to your manager or an
> HR rep, or you could go the direct route (my preferred method) and ask
> the
> guy directly. You might start the conversation out with - "Hey, I was
> checking out the list of certified people and you don't appear to be on
> it. What gives? Do you think that this is a mistake, or what do you
> think
> might have happened here?"
>
> Remember - if you hire someone on for a job (or bring a consultant in
> for
> a contract), you have the right to request copies of their
> certifications
> as well as any completion certificates which they might have in their
> possession that directly apply to the job. How else are you supposed to
> be
> assured that you have the correct person? If you are paying the bucks
> out
> for someone to the job, then you have the right to know that they can do
> it, wouldn't you agree?
>
> This should also extend to the consulting houses that you use to fulfill
> contracts. If you are paying top dollar for a resource, then you had
> better be getting what you are paying for.
>
> Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Sure, there are some grey areas every
> now
> and again, but I would challenge anyone to explain to me in detail how
> this would fall into one of them.
>
> > Remedyanon,
> >
> > First and foremost, you need to be 100% sure of your information.
> >
> > No decision should be made in a vacuum - you have told us little about
> the
> > person. There are a great many factors that should influence how you
> go
> > about it - while dealing with the person directly may be most
> honourable,
> > it may not be the best way.
> >
> > You must also consider the embarrassment/trouble if someone external
> found
> > this out - if you are a consulting firm then this would be
> devastating.
> >
> > I believe that each person should be given a chance, were in your
> place
> > however, I would likely tell someone of sufficient
> responsibility/power in
> > writing and allow them to share the burden.
> >
> > Your choice is not an easy one - either you allow someone to take
> credit
> > for something not accomplished and cheapen what others have achieved
> or
> > wreck a person's career.
> >
> > Best of luck.
> > Stephen
> > I do wonder how it is that the company did not follow-up on his/her
> > accreditation.
> >
> > "Mayfield, Andy L." wrote:
> > I would live and let live. Is there even a way to verify the
> information
> > you were given by BMC? God forbid you say something and your
> information
> > turns out to be incorrect, guess who will be looking foolish and petty
> > at that point. The only way I would even consider bringing it up is if
> I
> > were in direct competition with that individual for a position. In
> that
> > case I would address the issue with the individual directly.
> >
> >
> >>Andy L. Mayfield
> >>System Operation Specialist
> >>Alabama Power Company
> > Office: 8-226-1805
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> > [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Covert, Jack
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:34 AM
> > To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> > Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
> >
> > "I would however consider talking to this individual privately. I
> don't
> > know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
> they
> > understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no intention
> of
> > using the information. Tell them that you are just hopeful that they
> > will
> > find a way themselves to "right" the problem."
> >
> > I agree. I would go to him and work with him to correct the issue.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Warren Baltimore [mailto:warrenbaltimore@GMAIL.COM]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:25 AM
> > To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> > Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
> >
> > Well, both possible answers to this question have been proffered...Fry
> > 'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
> > throw in my two cents here....
> >
> > I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but this
> > is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
> > taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on a
> > daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is without
> > sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
> > choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes we
> > get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
> > cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
> > people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
> > commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
> > individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in a
> > situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
> > that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in an
> > Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
> > then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
> > reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
> > not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
> > probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
> > would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
> > know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
> > they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
> > intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
> > hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.
> >
> > Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
> > decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
> > have your ducks in a row.
> >
> > Warren
> >
> > On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black
> > wrote:
> >> Anonymous,
> >>
> >> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
> >> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's
> test
> >> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
> >>
> >> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
> >> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
> >>
> >> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
> >> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you ask
> >> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
> >> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email address
> >> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough for
> >> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
> >>
> >> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
> >> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
> >> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
> >> repay the expense due to a failure.)
> >>
> >> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could contact
> >> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that an
> >> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure of
> >> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that
> has
> >> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
> >>
> >> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own
> pocket,
> >> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
> >> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person took
> >> the class or not.
> >>
> >> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
> >> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in question
> >> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
> >> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and at
> >> least review their internal policies on such matters.
> >>
> >> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
> >> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
> >> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will
> only
> >> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach
> them
> >> what they are striving to learn.
> >>
> >> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write an
> >> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
> >> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you because
> >> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
> >>
> >> And while we are on the topic...
> >>
> >> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become BSP?
> >> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
> >> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before the
> >> certification names change.)
> >>
> >> --
> >> Carey Matthew Black
> >> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
> >> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
> >>
> >> Solution = People + Process + Tools
> >> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
> >> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
> >>
> >> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
> >>
> >> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> >> > Fellow Remedy Developers
> >> >
> >> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
> >> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> >> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
> >> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
> >> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> >> > certification program. I found out this information
> >> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
> >> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
> >> > According to their database, the individual has taken
> >> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
> >> > re-take certification tests.
> >> >
> >> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
> >> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> >> > company of his completed certification status. Our
> >> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
> >> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
> >> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
> >> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> >> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
> >> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
> >> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> >> > informed of this?
> >> >
> >> > Remedy Anonymous
> >> > Senior Remedy Developer
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> >
> >
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> >> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Warren R. Baltimore II
> > Remedy Developer
> > UW Medicine IT Services
> > School of Medicine
> > University of Washington
> > Box 358220
> > 1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
> > Seattle, WA 98101
> > Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
> > Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
> > V: 206-543-7392
> > F: 206-221-4745
> >
> > The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
> > University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
> > own.
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >
> >
>
> >
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >
> >
>
>
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >
> >
> >
> > ARS 5.1.2
> > Oracel 9i
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
> >
> >
>
>
> > UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> > (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
> >
>
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


--
Warren R. Baltimore II
Remedy Developer
UW Medicine IT Services
School of Medicine
University of Washington
Box 358220
1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
Seattle, WA 98101
Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
V: 206-543-7392
F: 206-221-4745

The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
own.


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

You know, one time not too long ago we had a "Remedy Expert" walk through
my old company's door with excellent credentials. She had an outstanding
resume which quickly convinced some management there that she was more
than qualified for the job. It didn't take too long for the application
team to comprehend the nightmare she was. It took my team months after
she was asked to leave to clean up her mess. Even when I left the company,
there were still remnants of the mess she left behind. The damage cost
the company many, many hours and lots of $$ redesigning and recoding
efforts. It costs the developers who were left behind many hours of
sleepless nights trying to fix an "unrepairable system".



Of course it didn't help that we had to deal with American Government
regulations and the process which we were confined too.



I don't know about you out there, but I've seen many so called "experts"
walk though the door with that pretty piece of paper and absolutely no
skill at all. You end up spending more of your time training them, then
they do helping you.



Yes, I'd be a little pissed if he was touting a vapor RSP Certificate.
But, I would be even more pissed if he couldn't back that claim up and I
was forced to clean up any potential mess he left behind.



As a good friend once told me, "No good deed goes unpunished." If he
can't hold his weight, and he's not willing to fess up, then by all means
call him to the mat.



Scott

This posting was submitted via the Web
interface


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My biggest problem with the whole scenario is that the information may
not be 100% accurate. From what I have read, he does not appear to be in
a position that should grant him access to this information and thus
cannot verify said information. Of course again, I am assuming from what
I have read that the information cannot be verified 100% by this person.
One way of sparking conversation on the subject might be to suggest to
your manager that copies of the certificates be on file somewhere in the
office for future reference, but I wouldn't address the issue directly
(without iron-clad facts). Would you call the IRS if you THOUGHT your
friend cheated on their taxes?

Andy L. Mayfield
System Operation Specialist
Alabama Power Company
Office: 8-226-1805


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Susan Palmer
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:47 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Whenever I completed a class or certification I always turned in a
copy of the certificate to be kept in my file. Seems like a slight
management process issue for not doing that if the employee doesn't
volunteer it.

When applying for a new job (or during consulting period of time) I
provided copies of certificates for review without being asked for
them.

I'm pretty well in Will's camp of thinking. It would bug the ---- out
of me knowing that this situation exists and do nothing. BUT, I would
hope I'd be smart enough to get something in writing from the source
that backs up the accusation. I believe in the direct approach to the
person in question, don't be a wimp. You don't have to be mean, there
have been some good approach methods given here. Don't tell anyone
else where you work until you final course of action is decided. You
won't be able to keep the secret (obviously since you've told us), you
need to tell someone totally removed, friend 1000 mi away or your dog.

The opinions that have been expressed here by everyone kind of
translate to the handling of children these days. The gentler, kinder
method that often leads to Nanny 911 scenario of live without
boundaries, or the firmer method that leads to a more truthful path
and a more functional family and an understanding of acceptable
behavior, integrity, and honesty.

Don't get me wrong, we ALL tell lies. I might say I'm interested in a
conversation my husband is carrying on just to be a good wife ... and
I'm sure ALL of you guys might be guilty of what could be called
'justified' falsehoods at times to be more diplomatic ... ok ...
that's a little much ... to eliminate any wifely nagging.

If the person doesn't get the drift from a friendly conversation, then
you have choices to make. Remember though, that person won't be
looking out for you when it comes to consequences and sometimes those
can take a turn that is unexpected. If it's head to head job
competition, then it goes to HR.

Now, we do expect a final report on your decision and the outcome when
you arrive at that action point.

Thanks,
Susan



On Apr 5, 2005 3:05 PM, Will Du Chene
wrote:
> I don't mean to drag the topic out, but I am not entirely certain that
I
> understand the position that most of the last few posts have taken.
Now
> maybe that is just me - maybe I am not as tolerant of this sort of
> behavior (maybe it is a character flaw of mine) but, I am a little
> confused. Help me out here?
>
> WARNING - The next few paragraphs are a statement of my personal
opinion
> and are pretty pointed. You may skip them if you wish.
>
> May I make an observation? The last few posts that I have seen have
all
> been almost understanding of this. Now that is bit scary to me. It
seems
> that there is some hesitation around actually dealing with the
situation
> because of the side effects that it might have. This is saddening.
>
> If you have accurate information - I mean (and this should go without
> saying in the first place), if you know that this person has failed
the
> test and is claiming to have passed - and you have confirmed this
somehow
> with some authority (such as the training provider), then why would
you
> not take action? I am afraid that I don't understand that part. If you
> bombed the test - say so. If you passed - say so.
>
> Now there are a couple of ways that you could do this. You could go
the
> anonymous route and send an email from an account such as the one from
> Yahoo that you are using and explain the situation to your manager or
an
> HR rep, or you could go the direct route (my preferred method) and ask
the
> guy directly. You might start the conversation out with - "Hey, I was
> checking out the list of certified people and you don't appear to be
on
> it. What gives? Do you think that this is a mistake, or what do you
think
> might have happened here?"
>
> Remember - if you hire someone on for a job (or bring a consultant in
for
> a contract), you have the right to request copies of their
certifications
> as well as any completion certificates which they might have in their
> possession that directly apply to the job. How else are you supposed
to be
> assured that you have the correct person? If you are paying the bucks
out
> for someone to the job, then you have the right to know that they can
do
> it, wouldn't you agree?
>
> This should also extend to the consulting houses that you use to
fulfill
> contracts. If you are paying top dollar for a resource, then you had
> better be getting what you are paying for.
>
> Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Sure, there are some grey areas every
now
> and again, but I would challenge anyone to explain to me in detail how
> this would fall into one of them.
>
>
> > Remedyanon,
> >
> > First and foremost, you need to be 100% sure of your information.
> >
> > No decision should be made in a vacuum - you have told us little
about the
> > person. There are a great many factors that should influence how
you go
> > about it - while dealing with the person directly may be most
honourable,
> > it may not be the best way.
> >
> > You must also consider the embarrassment/trouble if someone external
found
> > this out - if you are a consulting firm then this would be
devastating.
> >
> > I believe that each person should be given a chance, were in your
place
> > however, I would likely tell someone of sufficient
responsibility/power in
> > writing and allow them to share the burden.
> >
> > Your choice is not an easy one - either you allow someone to take
credit
> > for something not accomplished and cheapen what others have achieved
or
> > wreck a person's career.
> >
> > Best of luck.
> > Stephen
> > I do wonder how it is that the company did not follow-up on his/her
> > accreditation.
> >
> > "Mayfield, Andy L." wrote:
> > I would live and let live. Is there even a way to verify the
information
> > you were given by BMC? God forbid you say something and your
information
> > turns out to be incorrect, guess who will be looking foolish and
petty
> > at that point. The only way I would even consider bringing it up is
if I
> > were in direct competition with that individual for a position. In
that
> > case I would address the issue with the individual directly.
> >
> >
> >>Andy L. Mayfield
> >>System Operation Specialist
> >>Alabama Power Company
> > Office: 8-226-1805
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> > [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Covert, Jack
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:34 AM
> > To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> > Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
> >
> > "I would however consider talking to this individual privately. I
don't
> > know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
they
> > understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no intention
of
> > using the information. Tell them that you are just hopeful that they
> > will
> > find a way themselves to "right" the problem."
> >
> > I agree. I would go to him and work with him to correct the issue.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Warren Baltimore [mailto:warrenbaltimore@GMAIL.COM]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:25 AM
> > To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> > Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
> >
> > Well, both possible answers to this question have been
proffered...Fry
> > 'em or forget 'em. Lots of good things to say about both, but let me
> > throw in my two cents here....
> >
> > I'm not a person who normally pulls religion out for a look, but
this
> > is a pretty good place to do so. Of all the bible stories that I was
> > taught in CCD and 6 years of Catholic school, the one that ALWAYS on
a
> > daily basis comes back to me is a very simple one. "He who is
without
> > sin, cast the first stone". As humans, we have all made mistakes and
> > choices that are at best ethically/morally questionable. Sometimes
we
> > get away with it and sometimes we get caught with our hands in the
> > cookie jar. If this person is doing the work that they have misled
> > people into thinking he/she can do. And if they are keeping their
> > commitments to the company, then I would say it's between that
> > individual and the managers. It is a pretty horrible thing to be in
a
> > situation where you must affect the livelihood of another in a way
> > that can have LASTING repurcussions. In a former life, I worked in
an
> > Employee Relations office for a large public hospital and I saw more
> > then my fair share of people "doing the right thing" for no other
> > reason then to blow a whistle. It cost people jobs and family. It is
> > not something that should be done lightly. So what am I saying? I'd
> > probably keep my mouth shut unless this is causing harm to others. I
> > would however consider talking to this individual privately. I don't
> > know if that is possible for you or not. If you do, make sure that
> > they understand that you do it as a friend and that you have no
> > intention of using the information. Tell them that you are just
> > hopeful that they will find a way themselves to "right" the problem.
> >
> > Also, from a legal standpoint...and this is IMPORTANT. If you do
> > decide to say something, you run the risk of a lawsuit. Be sure you
> > have your ducks in a row.
> >
> > Warren
> >
> > On Apr 4, 2005 10:16 PM, Carey Matthew Black
> > wrote:
> >> Anonymous,
> >>
> >> Not that I am questioning your story, because I am not. However I
> >> do think that the method you described for getting someone else's
test
> >> scores is a bit.... disappointing.
> >>
> >> To be very specific it should be very hard to find out who failed a
> >> test. But it should be easily discovered who passed the test.
> >>
> >> I guess what I am saying there should be a way to verify any
> >> certification, but not who has taken the test and failed. If you
ask
> >> me, the major flaw in Remedy's certification is the inability to
> >> easily verify the certifications. (IMHO) Even a simple email
address
> >> lookup feature that returns a "yes"/"no" response would be enough
for
> >> a truly certified person to be able to prove their credentials.
> >>
> >> If your employer paid for the class, then they might have a good
> >> reason to verify the success of the training. (And dependent on the
> >> terms and conditions in your company maybe ask for the employee to
> >> repay the expense due to a failure.)
> >>
> >> Personally, I would hope that someone from your company could
contact
> >> Remedy's RSP program at SkilledPro@remedy.com. I would think that
an
> >> email sent from an address at your company should afford a measure
of
> >> authentication to inquiry about any employees of that company that
has
> >> passed the RSP (or RAC) tests.
> >>
> >> If however, the individual paid for the class our of their own
pocket,
> >> then the company should only be able to verify the persons current
> >> certification (If it exists.) and not even be told if the person
took
> >> the class or not.
> >>
> >> And I would like to add that I am personally disappointed in the
> >> individual at BMC (Remedy) that verified that the person in
question
> >> failed the test. (and failed it twice) I hope that the BMCRemedy
> >> people who are subscribed to the ARSList will read this thread and
at
> >> least review their internal policies on such matters.
> >>
> >> The point of any training is to teach. That is not a simple
> >> process as we all learn in different ways and at different speeds.
> >> However, allowing a person to be embarrassed by past failure will
only
> >> push them away from the very resources that could, in time, teach
them
> >> what they are striving to learn.
> >>
> >> I guess this incident is just another reason some one should write
an
> >> "ARS for dummy's" book and try to get it published. (Even if it is
> >> published on their own PC printer. No book as ever shamed you
because
> >> you were unable to complete reading the book.)
> >>
> >> And while we are on the topic...
> >>
> >> Anyone want to bet how long RSP will even exist? Will it become
BSP?
> >> (BMC Skilled Professional? Hey... they have started to re-brand the
> >> website... I can only imagine it is just a matter of time before
the
> >> certification names change.)
> >>
> >> --
> >> Carey Matthew Black
> >> Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
> >> ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)
> >>
> >> Solution = People + Process + Tools
> >> Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
> >> Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by
incompetence.
> >>
> >> http://www.fellowshipchurch.com
> >>
> >> On Apr 4, 2005 7:04 PM, Anonymous Remedy wrote:
> >> > Fellow Remedy Developers
> >> >
> >> > I would like to get some professional advice on how
> >> > best to handle a certain situation that has developed
> >> > within the group I work with. I have discovered that
> >> > one of my coworkers has been falsely claiming to have
> >> > completed the Remedy Skilled Professional
> >> > certification program. I found out this information
> >> > by chance while obtaining course information on the
> >> > RSP program from Remedy's Education department.
> >> > According to their database, the individual has taken
> >> > all required courses, but failed both the original and
> >> > re-take certification tests.
> >> >
> >> > The problem is further compounded as the employee
> >> > consistently informs newly hired managers within our
> >> > company of his completed certification status. Our
> >> > Assistant Director has also announced the employee's
> >> > "certification" to the rest of the department for
> >> > congratulations. Considering the potentially
> >> > embarrassing situation this will create with my own
> >> > managers, I would enjoy some advice on how best to
> >> > proceed with this information. Furthermore, should
> >> > anyone within Remedy's Education department be
> >> > informed of this?
> >> >
> >> > Remedy Anonymous
> >> > Senior Remedy Developer
> >>
> >>
> >

> >
> >
> >> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> >> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)


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Andy et all:

At the risk of sounding somewhat direct, this fact has been established and
touched upon by each of the folks that have posted a message in this
thread, including myself over and over again. Call me silly, but I think
that the point has been made.

Accurate information is a must. One should be honest and accept
responsibility for their actions certainly, but nowhere did I intend to
infere in my post that staff should be stupid and rush in where angels dare
not tread. Just for clarity - if you fly off the handle without seperating
reality from fantacy, then you deserve what you get.

IMNSHO - Employees have a certain measure of responsibility to the company
that they work for. An employee is obligated to be on the clock for the
standard shift (the number of hours may vary). An employee is obligated to
perform to the best of their abilities in completing the task in front of
them. An employee is obligated to respond TRUTHFULLY, accurately and timely
when they are asked to respond to a question. These simple points are
assumed in the employment contract, are they not?

Should an employee of a company report when something in the working
environment stinks? My experience tells me that they should. In many cases,
they have a legitimate right to do so, and many employers expect it. In
fact, there are some situations in which you are required to do so. Does it
make you an 'evil' person for doing so - not at all.

Now the rest of the list can argue amongst themselves until we are all blue
and speaking with squeeky voices from lack of oxygen on the topic, but the
simple fact remains that this situation bites all the way around.

Whomever it is that posted the original message will/should do what they
have a respective obligation to do, both morally and ethically to do. If
the poster decides to sit in the corner and pout about it - so be it. If
the poster stands up for what they feel is right and in the process
fulfills what they believe are to be their obligations - so be it.

For us on the list, this is a no win situation. We each have our respective
opinions on what needs to be done and, I suspect, varying degrees of
experience with situations such as this. Raking this one over and over
again is going nowhere.

And to your question below - Not initially. If they came driving home in a
new ferrari with the three billion dollar right-off that they got because
their paper company took a loss in profits because their staff of one got a
headcold - and I were still driving my Yukon that has stains on the seat
from my daughter's last chocolate ice cream cone, well...









My biggest problem with the whole scenario is that the information may
not be 100% accurate. From what I have read, he does not appear to be in
a position that should grant him access to this information and thus
cannot verify said information. Of course again, I am assuming from what
I have read that the information cannot be verified 100% by this person.
One way of sparking conversation on the subject might be to suggest to
your manager that copies of the certificates be on file somewhere in the
office for future reference, but I wouldn't address the issue directly
(without iron-clad facts). Would you call the IRS if you THOUGHT your
friend cheated on their taxes?

Andy L. Mayfield
System Operation Specialist
Alabama Power Company
Office: 8-226-1805


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(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Remedy Anonymous,
Unless this person's (possible) deceit caused me a direct harm I would let
this person's conscience work on them. If this is indicative of this
person's work ethic, it will catch up to them without putting yourself at risk.

Try the Serenity Prayer.
God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I can not change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And Wisdom to know the difference.

I was in Pinellas Park, Florida while a severely disabled person was
dehydrated to death. I have been praying alot.

Take care.
Jim


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(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

In any event I think after asking our collective advice,
not that there was a bottom line outcome,
but a considerable amount of interest in,
I think Remedy Anonymous owes us a post telling us what s/he did.

The only conclusions I reached from the posts were:

1) Make sure that the facts were facts
2) Make sure that if the facts were facts,
that you were supposed to know them

If (1) and (2) and evidence that the person misled intentionally,
something should be done.

However, some felt that if the person doesn't report to you,
even if (2) and (2) perhaps you should still ignore it or
talk to the person in private.

Some felt that if the liar were going to lose their
job because of it you should consider what you do and how publicly.

Some felt you should stop and smell the roses and that someone acting
unethically is unimportant unless it directly harms you.

I have found it a fascinating and revealing discussion,
that I have decided not to add to, just sum up.

... Daniel


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I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."

This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be perhaps a
gossiper,
being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing others, lacking
mercy,
being unkind, stealing company time, debating, pride, greed or some area of
sin.

I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap what we sow.

We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a good
standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to the world? or to
your department?




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(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Using "He that is without sin among you , let him first cast a stone..."
in this situation is not spiritual wisdom but rather twisting the word to
meet your needs or opinion. The question here is not judgement of a
person. Whether we like it or not the business of business is to make
money and as employees we are responsible to that end. If this person has
attended the training on the company's tab and has wasted the company's
money by failing the training then the company needs to know about it. It
doesn't matter how the facts were gathered it is the responsibility of the
employee to report any fraudulent findings to management. This action is
not judgement, it is just being a good employee.

Morey White
Support Services Group
AutoGas Systems, Inc.





Kathy Morris
Sent by: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"

04/06/2005 08:02 PM
Please respond to arslist


To:
cc:
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification


**
I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."
This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be perhaps a
gossiper,
being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing others, lacking
mercy,
being unkind, stealing company time, debating, pride, greed or some area
of sin.

I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap what we
sow.

We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a good
standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to the
world? or to your department?


This posting was submitted via the Web
interface



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Getting in Late on this thread.. Great comment.. Consider (Matt 18:23 to the
end) the parable of the Unmerciful Servant::
The servants told their master. Why? Because they are servants!
You are not judging them, you are doing what is right. You have a
responsibility to your master / Employer. Now if they say don't worry about
it.. The issue is on them (ur boss).

The idea that the Drug Dealer in your neighborhood is just going to
Automatically disappear, if I do nothing .. is wrong. If I confront evil
with good (or what is right) then evil is in check. But if I do nothing.. it
is then a Free for all..and is run a muck..

When I was a kid it was normal for the Bus Driver to "Whip your Butt" and
then when you got home your DAD did the same.
or when you did something wrong in the neighborhood, your neighbor made your
see the STARS while he laid out the Stripes, then your DAD did the same !

Today a bus driver cannot even talk to a child without the parents
considering Legal Action.




From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Morey White
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:24 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification


**
Using "He that is without sin among you , let him first cast a stone..." in
this situation is not spiritual wisdom but rather twisting the word to meet
your needs or opinion. The question here is not judgement of a person.
Whether we like it or not the business of business is to make money and as
employees we are responsible to that end. If this person has attended the
training on the company's tab and has wasted the company's money by failing
the training then the company needs to know about it. It doesn't matter how
the facts were gathered it is the responsibility of the employee to report
any fraudulent findings to management. This action is not judgement, it is
just being a good employee.

Morey White
Support Services Group
AutoGas Systems, Inc.




Kathy Morris
Sent by: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"



04/06/2005 08:02 PM
Please respond to arslist



To:
cc:
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification



**
I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."
This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be perhaps a
gossiper,
being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing others, lacking
mercy,
being unkind, stealing company time, debating, pride, greed or some area of
sin.

I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap what we
sow.

We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a good
standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to the
world? or to your department?


This posting was submitted via the Web
interface

This posting was submitted via the Web
interface


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Patrick and the others:

Wow! I never thought about that. However, I stand by my suggestion of the OP not going to his/her boss. This is sorta like the kid that tattletales. Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment and sued by the individual. I would approach the individual, advising them that I inadvertantly was made aware of the situation and give them a time period to correct the situation. This may be as simple as Remedy gave them the RSP anyway based upon work experience. (Yes, I would qualify as I have worked with Remedy products for over six years, but I still would feel better taking the test to see what I really know, not what I think I know.) The individual may be confused as to his/her RSP status. If they make no attempt to correct the situation, then I would take it through HR, anonymously. Let them sort it out. If the individual is then 'relieved of employment' this would be for company reasons and not look like a vendetta.

James McKenzie

-----Original Message-----
From: Zandi Patrick S TSgt AFRL/IFOSS
Sent: Apr 7, 2005 7:22 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: [ARSLIST] Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Getting in Late on this thread.. Great comment.. Consider (Matt 18:23 to the
end) the parable of the Unmerciful Servant::
The servants told their master. Why? Because they are servants!
You are not judging them, you are doing what is right. You have a
responsibility to your master / Employer. Now if they say don't worry about
it.. The issue is on them (ur boss).

The idea that the Drug Dealer in your neighborhood is just going to
Automatically disappear, if I do nothing .. is wrong. If I confront evil
with good (or what is right) then evil is in check. But if I do nothing.. it
is then a Free for all..and is run a muck..

When I was a kid it was normal for the Bus Driver to "Whip your Butt" and
then when you got home your DAD did the same.
or when you did something wrong in the neighborhood, your neighbor made your
see the STARS while he laid out the Stripes, then your DAD did the same !

Today a bus driver cannot even talk to a child without the parents
considering Legal Action.




From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Morey White
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:24 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification


**
Using "He that is without sin among you , let him first cast a stone..." in
this situation is not spiritual wisdom but rather twisting the word to meet
your needs or opinion. The question here is not judgement of a person.
Whether we like it or not the business of business is to make money and as
employees we are responsible to that end. If this person has attended the
training on the company's tab and has wasted the company's money by failing
the training then the company needs to know about it. It doesn't matter how
the facts were gathered it is the responsibility of the employee to report
any fraudulent findings to management. This action is not judgement, it is
just being a good employee.

Morey White
Support Services Group
AutoGas Systems, Inc.




Kathy Morris
Sent by: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"



04/06/2005 08:02 PM
Please respond to arslist



To:
cc:
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification



**
I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."
This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be perhaps a
gossiper,
being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing others, lacking
mercy,
being unkind, stealing company time, debating, pride, greed or some area of
sin.

I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap what we
sow.

We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a good
standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to the
world? or to your department?


This posting was submitted via the Web
interface

This posting was submitted via the Web
interface


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Boy, regardless of what happens, this has been a pretty interesting
conversation. Not every day you get to debate morality and ethics on
the ARS List! I've always been one of "those" people who liked to
talk about religion, politics and sex at parties. Just ask Zandi!
(cocktail party at Rug....)

Anyways, Anonymous, please tell us your intention when you come up
with it. I for one would be interested to hear what you did. Also,
whatever you do, and regardless of the advice that you recd. here,
WEIGH all the facts of the matter and make sure that your reasons for
action are true and that you understand that whatever you do, there
may very well be repurcussions for a great many people (including
yourself). That is not meant to say that you should or should not say
anything, it just means that you act or not act with your EYES WIDE
OPEN!

Good luck,

Warren

On Apr 7, 2005 8:24 AM, James Mckenzie wrote:
> Patrick and the others:
>
> Wow! I never thought about that. However, I stand by my suggestion of the OP not going to his/her boss. This is sorta like the kid that tattletales. Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment and sued by the individual. I would approach the individual, advising them that I inadvertantly was made aware of the situation and give them a time period to correct the situation. This may be as simple as Remedy gave them the RSP anyway based upon work experience. (Yes, I would qualify as I have worked with Remedy products for over six years, but I still would feel better taking the test to see what I really know, not what I think I know.) The individual may be confused as to his/her RSP status. If they make no attempt to correct the situation, then I would take it through HR, anonymously. Let them sort it out. If the individual is then 'relieved of employment' this would be for company reasons and not look like a vendetta.
>
> James McKenzie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zandi Patrick S TSgt AFRL/IFOSS
> Sent: Apr 7, 2005 7:22 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: [ARSLIST] Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> Getting in Late on this thread.. Great comment.. Consider (Matt 18:23 to the
> end) the parable of the Unmerciful Servant::
> The servants told their master. Why? Because they are servants!
> You are not judging them, you are doing what is right. You have a
> responsibility to your master / Employer. Now if they say don't worry about
> it.. The issue is on them (ur boss).
>
> The idea that the Drug Dealer in your neighborhood is just going to
> Automatically disappear, if I do nothing .. is wrong. If I confront evil
> with good (or what is right) then evil is in check. But if I do nothing.. it
> is then a Free for all..and is run a muck..
>
> When I was a kid it was normal for the Bus Driver to "Whip your Butt" and
> then when you got home your DAD did the same.
> or when you did something wrong in the neighborhood, your neighbor made your
> see the STARS while he laid out the Stripes, then your DAD did the same !
>
> Today a bus driver cannot even talk to a child without the parents
> considering Legal Action.
>
>
>
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Morey White
> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:24 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> **
> Using "He that is without sin among you , let him first cast a stone..." in
> this situation is not spiritual wisdom but rather twisting the word to meet
> your needs or opinion. The question here is not judgement of a person.
> Whether we like it or not the business of business is to make money and as
> employees we are responsible to that end. If this person has attended the
> training on the company's tab and has wasted the company's money by failing
> the training then the company needs to know about it. It doesn't matter how
> the facts were gathered it is the responsibility of the employee to report
> any fraudulent findings to management. This action is not judgement, it is
> just being a good employee.
>
> Morey White
> Support Services Group
> AutoGas Systems, Inc.
>
> Kathy Morris
> Sent by: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"
>
>
> 04/06/2005 08:02 PM
> Please respond to arslist
>
> To:
> cc:
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> **
> I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.
>
> "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."
> This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be perhaps a
> gossiper,
> being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing others, lacking
> mercy,
> being unkind, stealing company time, debating, pride, greed or some area of
> sin.
>
> I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap what we
> sow.
>
> We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a good
> standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to the
> world? or to your department?
>
> This posting was submitted via the Web
> interface
>
> This posting was submitted via the Web
> interface
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


--
Warren R. Baltimore II
Remedy Developer
UW Medicine IT Services
School of Medicine
University of Washington
Box 358220
1325 Fourth Ave, Suite 2000
Seattle, WA 98101
Office E: warrenb@u.washington.edu
Personal E: warrenbaltimore@gmail.com
V: 206-543-7392
F: 206-221-4745

The opinions expressed in this e-mail are in no way those of the
University of Washington, or the State of Washington. They are my
own.


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Remember RUG 2004 ?
Change management, The only person who knew what happened left and went on
vacation, and the whole network went down.
Similar in principle, Lets say a coworker saw him doing something wrong
underhanded, that was going to take the whole network/site down.
What will hurt more ? Your knowledge of this & trying to sleep at night, or
ensuring all is taken care of prior to a problem.

What if your kid was taught never to come to you or (tattle tail) ever.
Now his brother sips on the window cleaner or is playing with matches.

Are you to keep your tongue for your Brother or should I Honor my Father and
Mother. Hmmm.

I would rather my son come to me.. And it be nothing, than for him to keep
his tongue and kill someone.
I would rather my worker come to me.. And it be nothing, than for him to
keep his tongue and ruin me.

If the Master is unscrupulous, underhanded, and Dirty. Well.. It would be
a blessing to work somewhere else anyways.
He will get his due, like the unmerciful servant of Matthew 18 ..
http://godsword.friendshipbaptist.us/B40C018.htm

I have to rebuild the friendshipbaptist.us site, but the GodsWord is working
just fine..

Enough of this, lets get up and move on ...

=8 -)

Warrnen, I am hoping to be at RUG 2005 ! See ya there...

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of James Mckenzie
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:25 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Patrick and the others:

Wow! I never thought about that. However, I stand by my suggestion of the
OP not going to his/her boss. This is sorta like the kid that tattletales.
Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment and sued by the
individual. I would approach the individual, advising them that I
inadvertantly was made aware of the situation and give them a time period to
correct the situation. This may be as simple as Remedy gave them the RSP
anyway based upon work experience. (Yes, I would qualify as I have worked
with Remedy products for over six years, but I still would feel better
taking the test to see what I really know, not what I think I know.) The
individual may be confused as to his/her RSP status. If they make no
attempt to correct the situation, then I would take it through HR,
anonymously. Let them sort it out. If the individual is then 'relieved of
employment' this would be for company reasons and not look like a vendetta.

James McKenzie

-----Original Message-----
From: Zandi Patrick S TSgt AFRL/IFOSS
Sent: Apr 7, 2005 7:22 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: [ARSLIST] Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Getting in Late on this thread.. Great comment.. Consider (Matt 18:23 to the
end) the parable of the Unmerciful Servant::
The servants told their master. Why? Because they are servants!
You are not judging them, you are doing what is right. You have a
responsibility to your master / Employer. Now if they say don't worry about
it.. The issue is on them (ur boss).

The idea that the Drug Dealer in your neighborhood is just going to
Automatically disappear, if I do nothing .. is wrong. If I confront evil
with good (or what is right) then evil is in check. But if I do nothing.. it
is then a Free for all..and is run a muck..

When I was a kid it was normal for the Bus Driver to "Whip your Butt" and
then when you got home your DAD did the same.
or when you did something wrong in the neighborhood, your neighbor made your
see the STARS while he laid out the Stripes, then your DAD did the same !

Today a bus driver cannot even talk to a child without the parents
considering Legal Action.




From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Morey White
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:24 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification


**
Using "He that is without sin among you , let him first cast a stone..." in
this situation is not spiritual wisdom but rather twisting the word to meet
your needs or opinion. The question here is not judgement of a person.
Whether we like it or not the business of business is to make money and as
employees we are responsible to that end. If this person has attended the
training on the company's tab and has wasted the company's money by failing
the training then the company needs to know about it. It doesn't matter how
the facts were gathered it is the responsibility of the employee to report
any fraudulent findings to management. This action is not judgement, it is
just being a good employee.

Morey White
Support Services Group
AutoGas Systems, Inc.




Kathy Morris Sent by: "Action Request
System discussion list(ARSList)"



04/06/2005 08:02 PM
Please respond to arslist



To:
cc:
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification



**
I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."
This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be perhaps a
gossiper, being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing others,
lacking mercy, being unkind, stealing company time, debating, pride, greed
or some area of sin.

I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap what we
sow.

We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a good
standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to the
world? or to your department?


This posting was submitted via the Web
interface

This posting was submitted via the Web
interface



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

We all need to remember that all of this is over a piece of paper that
coupled with 50 cents might get you a cup of coffee.


Andy L. Mayfield
System Operation Specialist
Alabama Power Company
Office: 8-226-1805






From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Zandi Patrick S TSgt
AFRL/IFOSS
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:22 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification


**
Getting in Late on this thread.. Great comment.. Consider (Matt
18:23 to the end) the parable of the Unmerciful Servant::
The servants told their master. Why? Because they are servants!
You are not judging them, you are doing what is right. You have
a responsibility to your master / Employer. Now if they say don't worry
about it.. The issue is on them (ur boss).

The idea that the Drug Dealer in your neighborhood is just going
to Automatically disappear, if I do nothing .. is wrong. If I confront
evil with good (or what is right) then evil is in check. But if I do
nothing.. it is then a Free for all..and is run a muck..

When I was a kid it was normal for the Bus Driver to "Whip your
Butt" and then when you got home your DAD did the same.
or when you did something wrong in the neighborhood, your
neighbor made your see the STARS while he laid out the Stripes, then
your DAD did the same !

Today a bus driver cannot even talk to a child without the
parents considering Legal Action.




From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Morey White
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:24 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification


**
Using "He that is without sin among you , let him first cast a
stone..." in this situation is not spiritual wisdom but rather twisting
the word to meet your needs or opinion. The question here is not
judgement of a person. Whether we like it or not the business of
business is to make money and as employees we are responsible to that
end. If this person has attended the training on the company's tab and
has wasted the company's money by failing the training then the company
needs to know about it. It doesn't matter how the facts were gathered
it is the responsibility of the employee to report any fraudulent
findings to management. This action is not judgement, it is just being
a good employee.

Morey White
Support Services Group
AutoGas Systems, Inc.




Kathy Morris
Sent by: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"


04/06/2005 08:02 PM
Please respond to arslist



To:
cc:
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification



**
I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a
stone..."
This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be
perhaps a gossiper,
being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing others,
lacking mercy,
being unkind, stealing company time, debating, pride, greed or
some area of sin.

I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap
what we sow.

We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a
good standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to
the world? or to your department?


This posting was submitted via the
Web interface

This posting was submitted via the
Web interface This posting was submitted
via the Web interface



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

It's kind of interesting that several people have thought to take the
information to someone anonymously. Let's think about that, how
anonymous would it actually be? Unless you have a huge Remedy staff,
aren't they going to have a good idea who is sending the info, who
would even have access to it or know where to get access to it ! Are
you going to write it on paper, of course have another person write
it, remove all fingerprints, make sure no DNA touches it, no imprints
left on a pad of paper, no electronic trail, and that no one saw you
send/deliver it, etc etc etc. Come on, don't you all read action/spy
books or watch Alias (highly recommended) ? Why are people so afraid
to ask the person directly? You don't have to pounce on them, there's
no ramifications of a friendly direct approach except maybe irritating
them ... but does that really matter if it can be resolved that easy.
We've become a society afraid to deal with conflict directly, which is
reflected in the fact there are so many responses to this thread.

This thread has made me laugh, shake my head, wonder what's going on,
and be concerned about the future of the world all at the same time
(pretty profound eh?). And I'm beginning to think this was a great
April fools post just a few days late ... we haven't had a LONG thread
in a long time !

Susan


On Apr 7, 2005 10:24 AM, James Mckenzie wrote:
> Patrick and the others:
>
> Wow! I never thought about that. However, I stand by my suggestion of the OP not going to his/her boss. This is sorta like the kid that tattletales. Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment and sued by the individual. I would approach the individual, advising them that I inadvertantly was made aware of the situation and give them a time period to correct the situation. This may be as simple as Remedy gave them the RSP anyway based upon work experience. (Yes, I would qualify as I have worked with Remedy products for over six years, but I still would feel better taking the test to see what I really know, not what I think I know.) The individual may be confused as to his/her RSP status. If they make no attempt to correct the situation, then I would take it through HR, anonymously. Let them sort it out. If the individual is then 'relieved of employment' this would be for company reasons and not look like a vendetta.
>
> James McKenzie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zandi Patrick S TSgt AFRL/IFOSS
> Sent: Apr 7, 2005 7:22 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: [ARSLIST] Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> Getting in Late on this thread.. Great comment.. Consider (Matt 18:23 to the
> end) the parable of the Unmerciful Servant::
> The servants told their master. Why? Because they are servants!
> You are not judging them, you are doing what is right. You have a
> responsibility to your master / Employer. Now if they say don't worry about
> it.. The issue is on them (ur boss).
>
> The idea that the Drug Dealer in your neighborhood is just going to
> Automatically disappear, if I do nothing .. is wrong. If I confront evil
> with good (or what is right) then evil is in check. But if I do nothing.. it
> is then a Free for all..and is run a muck..
>
> When I was a kid it was normal for the Bus Driver to "Whip your Butt" and
> then when you got home your DAD did the same.
> or when you did something wrong in the neighborhood, your neighbor made your
> see the STARS while he laid out the Stripes, then your DAD did the same !
>
> Today a bus driver cannot even talk to a child without the parents
> considering Legal Action.
>
>
>
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Morey White
> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:24 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> **
> Using "He that is without sin among you , let him first cast a stone..." in
> this situation is not spiritual wisdom but rather twisting the word to meet
> your needs or opinion. The question here is not judgement of a person.
> Whether we like it or not the business of business is to make money and as
> employees we are responsible to that end. If this person has attended the
> training on the company's tab and has wasted the company's money by failing
> the training then the company needs to know about it. It doesn't matter how
> the facts were gathered it is the responsibility of the employee to report
> any fraudulent findings to management. This action is not judgement, it is
> just being a good employee.
>
> Morey White
> Support Services Group
> AutoGas Systems, Inc.
>
> Kathy Morris
> Sent by: "Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)"
>
>
> 04/06/2005 08:02 PM
> Please respond to arslist
>
> To:
> cc:
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> **
> I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.
>
> "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."
> This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be perhaps a
> gossiper,
> being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing others, lacking
> mercy,
> being unkind, stealing company time, debating, pride, greed or some area of
> sin.
>
> I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap what we
> sow.
>
> We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a good
> standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to the
> world? or to your department?
>
> This posting was submitted via the Web
> interface
>
> This posting was submitted via the Web
> interface
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Ok, I'll chime in now...

If this person says he/she is an RSP, that person must think they are
pretty Remedy "savvy". If they are, chances are pretty good that they
read this list and are aware of the situation now.

How can someone read the original post and not think that if the shoe
fits...

Also note... We have not heard from the anon poster after all of the
follow up posts.

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of James Mckenzie
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 10:25 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Patrick and the others:

Wow! I never thought about that. However, I stand by my suggestion of
the OP not going to his/her boss. This is sorta like the kid that
tattletales. Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment
and sued by the individual. I would approach the individual, advising
them that I inadvertantly was made aware of the situation and give them
a time period to correct the situation. This may be as simple as Remedy
gave them the RSP anyway based upon work experience. (Yes, I would
qualify as I have worked with Remedy products for over six years, but I
still would feel better taking the test to see what I really know, not
what I think I know.) The individual may be confused as to his/her RSP
status. If they make no attempt to correct the situation, then I would
take it through HR, anonymously. Let them sort it out. If the
individual is then 'relieved of employment' this would be for company
reasons and not look like a vendetta.

James McKenzie

-----Original Message-----
From: Zandi Patrick S TSgt AFRL/IFOSS
Sent: Apr 7, 2005 7:22 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: [ARSLIST] Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Getting in Late on this thread.. Great comment.. Consider (Matt 18:23 to
the
end) the parable of the Unmerciful Servant::
The servants told their master. Why? Because they are servants!
You are not judging them, you are doing what is right. You have a
responsibility to your master / Employer. Now if they say don't worry
about it.. The issue is on them (ur boss).

The idea that the Drug Dealer in your neighborhood is just going to
Automatically disappear, if I do nothing .. is wrong. If I confront
evil with good (or what is right) then evil is in check. But if I do
nothing.. it is then a Free for all..and is run a muck..

When I was a kid it was normal for the Bus Driver to "Whip your Butt"
and then when you got home your DAD did the same.
or when you did something wrong in the neighborhood, your neighbor made
your see the STARS while he laid out the Stripes, then your DAD did the
same !

Today a bus driver cannot even talk to a child without the parents
considering Legal Action.




From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Morey White
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:24 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification


**
Using "He that is without sin among you , let him first cast a stone..."
in this situation is not spiritual wisdom but rather twisting the word
to meet your needs or opinion. The question here is not judgement of a
person.
Whether we like it or not the business of business is to make money and
as employees we are responsible to that end. If this person has
attended the training on the company's tab and has wasted the company's
money by failing the training then the company needs to know about it.
It doesn't matter how the facts were gathered it is the responsibility
of the employee to report any fraudulent findings to management. This
action is not judgement, it is just being a good employee.

Morey White
Support Services Group
AutoGas Systems, Inc.




Kathy Morris Sent by: "Action Request
System discussion list(ARSList)"



04/06/2005 08:02 PM
Please respond to arslist



To:
cc:
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification



**
I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."
This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be perhaps a
gossiper, being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing
others, lacking mercy, being unkind, stealing company time, debating,
pride, greed or some area of sin.

I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap what we
sow.

We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a good
standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to the
world? or to your department?


This posting was submitted via the Web
interface

This posting was submitted via the Web
interface



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

James,

At the risk of furthering the thread for another day...

"
Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment and sued by
the individual.
"

It is possible to be sued for anything. However if you are sued for
telling the truth then you will not be "convicted" of anything except
telling the truth. This is nothing like "tattletales" in my opinion.
And even if it is... truth has a way of becoming known.

What anonymous should NOT do is run down the hall way screaming it at
the top of their lungs. That might be behaviour that is illegal due to
the "absurd about of damage" to the "accused" reputation by anonymous
actions. Even if the statement is true! (We live in a strange
legalistic world.)


Your corporate policies may or may not require you as an employee to
take action.

However, if anonymous does inform their employer in some
"HR"/"Security" channel then there should be zero repercussions. And
in fact the individual should not be informed who reported the truth.
It is the responsibility of groups like "HR" and "Security" to keep
things like this confidential during the investigation. If the "facts"
prove to be that the "accused" is certified then the investigation
ends and no harm done. (Again.. it was handled confidentially.) If the
investigation ends with the "accused" as NOT certified then anonymous
may or may not be directly involved. However, either way they should
be well protected by the quality of the investigation that is done.

But you will likely not be legally liable for any outcome of informing
your employer, in a discreet manor, of what you were told. (Even if
what you were told originally turns out to be wrong.) Let them decide
if it needs to go farther or get more time in investigation. Just make
sure you are accurate with statement like "I was told by person
"x" and I thought you should know."

How you found out may taint you as a source of creditable information,
but your employer can go to the "horses mouth" and find the full truth
for themselves.


If you think that the person is approachable, then you might offer
them the opportunity to convince you that you should not share what
you think you know with your employer. And/Or allow them to come with
you so that they can admit to it before you have to report it.


It is more honorable to admit to a mistake and apologise. But once the
whistle is blown... it is to late to avoid many repercussions. Your
simply caught and get to pay the price for the mistake. (Even if you
are a nice person. Rules have consequences.)

--
Carey Matthew Black
Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)

Solution = People + Process + Tools
Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.

http://www.fellowshipchurch.com


On Apr 7, 2005 10:24 AM, James Mckenzie wrote:
> Patrick and the others:
>
> Wow! I never thought about that. However, I stand by my suggestion of the OP not going to his/her boss. This is sorta like the kid that tattletales. Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment and sued by the individual. I would approach the individual, advising them that I inadvertantly was made aware of the situation and give them a time period to correct the situation. This may be as simple as Remedy gave them the RSP anyway based upon work experience. (Yes, I would qualify as I have worked with Remedy products for over six years, but I still would feel better taking the test to see what I really know, not what I think I know.) The individual may be confused as to his/her RSP status. If they make no attempt to correct the situation, then I would take it through HR, anonymously. Let them sort it out. If the individual is then 'relieved of employment' this would be for company reasons and not look like a vendetta.
>
> James McKenzie


UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)

Zandi,

Even IF his facts correct, it is still just a worthless piece of paper
we are talking about. If he knows his stuff, then its not my problem. Do
you want your kid to you every time his sister sticks her tongue out at
him, or every time the neighbors kid wont let him play with his toy car?
If so, you probably do not have kids.


>Andy L. Mayfield
>System Operation Specialist
>Alabama Power Company
Office: 8-226-1805


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Zandi Patrick S TSgt
AFRL/IFOSS
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:00 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Remember RUG 2004 ?
Change management, The only person who knew what happened left and went
on
vacation, and the whole network went down.
Similar in principle, Lets say a coworker saw him doing something wrong
underhanded, that was going to take the whole network/site down.
What will hurt more ? Your knowledge of this & trying to sleep at night,
or
ensuring all is taken care of prior to a problem.

What if your kid was taught never to come to you or (tattle tail) ever.
Now his brother sips on the window cleaner or is playing with matches.

Are you to keep your tongue for your Brother or should I Honor my Father
and
Mother. Hmmm.

I would rather my son come to me.. And it be nothing, than for him to
keep
his tongue and kill someone.
I would rather my worker come to me.. And it be nothing, than for him to
keep his tongue and ruin me.

If the Master is unscrupulous, underhanded, and Dirty. Well.. It would
be
a blessing to work somewhere else anyways.
He will get his due, like the unmerciful servant of Matthew 18 ..
http://godsword.friendshipbaptist.us/B40C018.htm

I have to rebuild the friendshipbaptist.us site, but the GodsWord is
working
just fine..

Enough of this, lets get up and move on ...

=8 -)

Warrnen, I am hoping to be at RUG 2005 ! See ya there...

-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of James Mckenzie
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:25 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Patrick and the others:

Wow! I never thought about that. However, I stand by my suggestion of
the
OP not going to his/her boss. This is sorta like the kid that
tattletales.
Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment and sued by
the
individual. I would approach the individual, advising them that I
inadvertantly was made aware of the situation and give them a time
period to
correct the situation. This may be as simple as Remedy gave them the
RSP
anyway based upon work experience. (Yes, I would qualify as I have
worked
with Remedy products for over six years, but I still would feel better
taking the test to see what I really know, not what I think I know.)
The
individual may be confused as to his/her RSP status. If they make no
attempt to correct the situation, then I would take it through HR,
anonymously. Let them sort it out. If the individual is then 'relieved
of
employment' this would be for company reasons and not look like a
vendetta.

James McKenzie

-----Original Message-----
From: Zandi Patrick S TSgt AFRL/IFOSS
Sent: Apr 7, 2005 7:22 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: [ARSLIST] Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

Getting in Late on this thread.. Great comment.. Consider (Matt 18:23 to
the
end) the parable of the Unmerciful Servant::
The servants told their master. Why? Because they are servants!
You are not judging them, you are doing what is right. You have a
responsibility to your master / Employer. Now if they say don't worry
about
it.. The issue is on them (ur boss).

The idea that the Drug Dealer in your neighborhood is just going to
Automatically disappear, if I do nothing .. is wrong. If I confront
evil
with good (or what is right) then evil is in check. But if I do
nothing.. it
is then a Free for all..and is run a muck..

When I was a kid it was normal for the Bus Driver to "Whip your Butt"
and
then when you got home your DAD did the same.
or when you did something wrong in the neighborhood, your neighbor made
your
see the STARS while he laid out the Stripes, then your DAD did the same
!

Today a bus driver cannot even talk to a child without the parents
considering Legal Action.




From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Morey White
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:24 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification


**
Using "He that is without sin among you , let him first cast a stone..."
in
this situation is not spiritual wisdom but rather twisting the word to
meet
your needs or opinion. The question here is not judgement of a person.
Whether we like it or not the business of business is to make money and
as
employees we are responsible to that end. If this person has attended
the
training on the company's tab and has wasted the company's money by
failing
the training then the company needs to know about it. It doesn't matter
how
the facts were gathered it is the responsibility of the employee to
report
any fraudulent findings to management. This action is not judgement, it
is
just being a good employee.

Morey White
Support Services Group
AutoGas Systems, Inc.




Kathy Morris Sent by: "Action Request
System discussion list(ARSList)"



04/06/2005 08:02 PM
Please respond to arslist



To:
cc:
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification



**
I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."
This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be perhaps a
gossiper, being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing
others,
lacking mercy, being unkind, stealing company time, debating, pride,
greed
or some area of sin.

I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap what we
sow.

We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a good
standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to the
world? or to your department?


This posting was submitted via the Web
interface

This posting was submitted via the Web
interface




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(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)




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You most certainly can be sued for telling "the truth". Say for instance
you accidentally gained knowledge of someone's medical records and
leaked it, you would be liable. I imagine the same may be true for
personal records. I know it would be taboo where I work. Of course even
discussing salaries with coworkers will get you fired where I work.


Andy L. Mayfield
System Operation Specialist
Alabama Power Company
Office: 8-226-1805


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Carey Matthew Black
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:27 AM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

James,

At the risk of furthering the thread for another day...

"
Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment and sued by
the individual.
"

It is possible to be sued for anything. However if you are sued for
telling the truth then you will not be "convicted" of anything except
telling the truth. This is nothing like "tattletales" in my opinion.
And even if it is... truth has a way of becoming known.

What anonymous should NOT do is run down the hall way screaming it at
the top of their lungs. That might be behaviour that is illegal due to
the "absurd about of damage" to the "accused" reputation by anonymous
actions. Even if the statement is true! (We live in a strange
legalistic world.)


Your corporate policies may or may not require you as an employee to
take action.

However, if anonymous does inform their employer in some
"HR"/"Security" channel then there should be zero repercussions. And
in fact the individual should not be informed who reported the truth.
It is the responsibility of groups like "HR" and "Security" to keep
things like this confidential during the investigation. If the "facts"
prove to be that the "accused" is certified then the investigation
ends and no harm done. (Again.. it was handled confidentially.) If the
investigation ends with the "accused" as NOT certified then anonymous
may or may not be directly involved. However, either way they should
be well protected by the quality of the investigation that is done.

But you will likely not be legally liable for any outcome of informing
your employer, in a discreet manor, of what you were told. (Even if
what you were told originally turns out to be wrong.) Let them decide
if it needs to go farther or get more time in investigation. Just make
sure you are accurate with statement like "I was told by person
"x" and I thought you should know."

How you found out may taint you as a source of creditable information,
but your employer can go to the "horses mouth" and find the full truth
for themselves.


If you think that the person is approachable, then you might offer
them the opportunity to convince you that you should not share what
you think you know with your employer. And/Or allow them to come with
you so that they can admit to it before you have to report it.


It is more honorable to admit to a mistake and apologise. But once the
whistle is blown... it is to late to avoid many repercussions. Your
simply caught and get to pay the price for the mistake. (Even if you
are a nice person. Rules have consequences.)

--
Carey Matthew Black
Remedy Skilled Professional (RSP)
ARS = Action Request System(Remedy)

Solution = People + Process + Tools
Fast, Accurate, Cheap.... Pick two.
Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.

http://www.fellowshipchurch.com


On Apr 7, 2005 10:24 AM, James Mckenzie
wrote:
> Patrick and the others:
>
> Wow! I never thought about that. However, I stand by my suggestion
of the OP not going to his/her boss. This is sorta like the kid that
tattletales. Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment
and sued by the individual. I would approach the individual, advising
them that I inadvertantly was made aware of the situation and give them
a time period to correct the situation. This may be as simple as Remedy
gave them the RSP anyway based upon work experience. (Yes, I would
qualify as I have worked with Remedy products for over six years, but I
still would feel better taking the test to see what I really know, not
what I think I know.) The individual may be confused as to his/her RSP
status. If they make no attempt to correct the situation, then I would
take it through HR, anonymously. Let them sort it out. If the
individual is then 'relieved of employment' this would be for company
reasons and not look like a vendetta.
>
> James McKenzie



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
(Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)


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I'm sorry...I just can't agree with this position. That's like saying
that you have a Bachelors Degree because you paid one of those internet
companies $20 to issue you one. Certifications are similar, in that
they can be used as consideration for a job as well as pay increases at
your current employment. Anon's company may try to get a contract based
on having an RSP in house (less likely with RSP vs RAC but still). Job
assignments in a group can be decided because one employee is more
'able' to do the job. I agree that if he has the skill then it doesn't
matter...but if he has the skill he should be able to get the piece of
paper that proves it. I just started college so I can get a BSCS, I'm
not putting myself through this because I feel the piece of paper will
make me a better person but because in the corporate world you can only
go so far without it. If Anon's co-worker feels that he is good enough
without the paper that's great, I've gotten this far in my career
without it but I would never lie and say I have one because I feel I
have the skills necessary to get one.

Mayfield, Andy L. wrote:
> Zandi,
>
> Even IF his facts correct, it is still just a worthless piece of paper
> we are talking about. If he knows his stuff, then its not my problem. Do
> you want your kid to you every time his sister sticks her tongue out at
> him, or every time the neighbors kid wont let him play with his toy car?
> If so, you probably do not have kids.
>
>
>
>>Andy L. Mayfield
>>System Operation Specialist
>>Alabama Power Company
>
> Office: 8-226-1805
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Zandi Patrick S TSgt
> AFRL/IFOSS
> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:00 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> Remember RUG 2004 ?
> Change management, The only person who knew what happened left and went
> on
> vacation, and the whole network went down.
> Similar in principle, Lets say a coworker saw him doing something wrong
> underhanded, that was going to take the whole network/site down.
> What will hurt more ? Your knowledge of this & trying to sleep at night,
> or
> ensuring all is taken care of prior to a problem.
>
> What if your kid was taught never to come to you or (tattle tail) ever.
> Now his brother sips on the window cleaner or is playing with matches.
>
> Are you to keep your tongue for your Brother or should I Honor my Father
> and
> Mother. Hmmm.
>
> I would rather my son come to me.. And it be nothing, than for him to
> keep
> his tongue and kill someone.
> I would rather my worker come to me.. And it be nothing, than for him to
> keep his tongue and ruin me.
>
> If the Master is unscrupulous, underhanded, and Dirty. Well.. It would
> be
> a blessing to work somewhere else anyways.
> He will get his due, like the unmerciful servant of Matthew 18 ..
> http://godsword.friendshipbaptist.us/B40C018.htm
>
> I have to rebuild the friendshipbaptist.us site, but the GodsWord is
> working
> just fine..
>
> Enough of this, lets get up and move on ...
>
> =8 -)
>
> Warrnen, I am hoping to be at RUG 2005 ! See ya there...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of James Mckenzie
> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:25 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> Patrick and the others:
>
> Wow! I never thought about that. However, I stand by my suggestion of
> the
> OP not going to his/her boss. This is sorta like the kid that
> tattletales.
> Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment and sued by
> the
> individual. I would approach the individual, advising them that I
> inadvertantly was made aware of the situation and give them a time
> period to
> correct the situation. This may be as simple as Remedy gave them the
> RSP
> anyway based upon work experience. (Yes, I would qualify as I have
> worked
> with Remedy products for over six years, but I still would feel better
> taking the test to see what I really know, not what I think I know.)
> The
> individual may be confused as to his/her RSP status. If they make no
> attempt to correct the situation, then I would take it through HR,
> anonymously. Let them sort it out. If the individual is then 'relieved
> of
> employment' this would be for company reasons and not look like a
> vendetta.
>
> James McKenzie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zandi Patrick S TSgt AFRL/IFOSS
> Sent: Apr 7, 2005 7:22 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: [ARSLIST] Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> Getting in Late on this thread.. Great comment.. Consider (Matt 18:23 to
> the
> end) the parable of the Unmerciful Servant::
> The servants told their master. Why? Because they are servants!
> You are not judging them, you are doing what is right. You have a
> responsibility to your master / Employer. Now if they say don't worry
> about
> it.. The issue is on them (ur boss).
>
> The idea that the Drug Dealer in your neighborhood is just going to
> Automatically disappear, if I do nothing .. is wrong. If I confront
> evil
> with good (or what is right) then evil is in check. But if I do
> nothing.. it
> is then a Free for all..and is run a muck..
>
> When I was a kid it was normal for the Bus Driver to "Whip your Butt"
> and
> then when you got home your DAD did the same.
> or when you did something wrong in the neighborhood, your neighbor made
> your
> see the STARS while he laid out the Stripes, then your DAD did the same
> !
>
> Today a bus driver cannot even talk to a child without the parents
> considering Legal Action.
>
>
>
>
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Morey White
> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:24 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
>
> **
> Using "He that is without sin among you , let him first cast a stone..."
> in
> this situation is not spiritual wisdom but rather twisting the word to
> meet
> your needs or opinion. The question here is not judgement of a person.
> Whether we like it or not the business of business is to make money and
> as
> employees we are responsible to that end. If this person has attended
> the
> training on the company's tab and has wasted the company's money by
> failing
> the training then the company needs to know about it. It doesn't matter
> how
> the facts were gathered it is the responsibility of the employee to
> report
> any fraudulent findings to management. This action is not judgement, it
> is
> just being a good employee.
>
> Morey White
> Support Services Group
> AutoGas Systems, Inc.
>
>
>
>
> Kathy Morris Sent by: "Action Request
> System discussion list(ARSList)"
>
>
>
> 04/06/2005 08:02 PM
> Please respond to arslist
>
>
>
> To:
> cc:
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
>
>
> **
> I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.
>
> "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."
> This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be perhaps a
> gossiper, being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing
> others,
> lacking mercy, being unkind, stealing company time, debating, pride,
> greed
> or some area of sin.
>
> I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap what we
> sow.
>
> We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a good
> standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to the
> world? or to your department?
>
>
> This posting was submitted via the Web
> interface
>
> This posting was submitted via the Web
> interface
>
>
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>


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If he/she wants to jeopardize their own employment over an almost
worthless certificate that he THINKS the person may not have, more power
to them.


>Andy L. Mayfield
>System Operation Specialist
>Alabama Power Company
Office: 8-226-1805


-----Original Message-----
From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
[mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of L. J. Head
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 12:21 PM
To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification

I'm sorry...I just can't agree with this position. That's like saying
that you have a Bachelors Degree because you paid one of those internet
companies $20 to issue you one. Certifications are similar, in that
they can be used as consideration for a job as well as pay increases at
your current employment. Anon's company may try to get a contract based
on having an RSP in house (less likely with RSP vs RAC but still). Job
assignments in a group can be decided because one employee is more
'able' to do the job. I agree that if he has the skill then it doesn't
matter...but if he has the skill he should be able to get the piece of
paper that proves it. I just started college so I can get a BSCS, I'm
not putting myself through this because I feel the piece of paper will
make me a better person but because in the corporate world you can only
go so far without it. If Anon's co-worker feels that he is good enough
without the paper that's great, I've gotten this far in my career
without it but I would never lie and say I have one because I feel I
have the skills necessary to get one.

Mayfield, Andy L. wrote:
> Zandi,
>
> Even IF his facts correct, it is still just a worthless piece of paper
> we are talking about. If he knows his stuff, then its not my problem.
Do
> you want your kid to you every time his sister sticks her tongue out
at
> him, or every time the neighbors kid wont let him play with his toy
car?
> If so, you probably do not have kids.
>
>
>
>>Andy L. Mayfield
>>System Operation Specialist
>>Alabama Power Company
>
> Office: 8-226-1805
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Zandi Patrick S TSgt
> AFRL/IFOSS
> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:00 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> Remember RUG 2004 ?
> Change management, The only person who knew what happened left and
went
> on
> vacation, and the whole network went down.
> Similar in principle, Lets say a coworker saw him doing something
wrong
> underhanded, that was going to take the whole network/site down.
> What will hurt more ? Your knowledge of this & trying to sleep at
night,
> or
> ensuring all is taken care of prior to a problem.
>
> What if your kid was taught never to come to you or (tattle tail)
ever.
> Now his brother sips on the window cleaner or is playing with matches.
>
> Are you to keep your tongue for your Brother or should I Honor my
Father
> and
> Mother. Hmmm.
>
> I would rather my son come to me.. And it be nothing, than for him to
> keep
> his tongue and kill someone.
> I would rather my worker come to me.. And it be nothing, than for him
to
> keep his tongue and ruin me.
>
> If the Master is unscrupulous, underhanded, and Dirty. Well.. It
would
> be
> a blessing to work somewhere else anyways.
> He will get his due, like the unmerciful servant of Matthew 18 ..
> http://godsword.friendshipbaptist.us/B40C018.htm
>
> I have to rebuild the friendshipbaptist.us site, but the GodsWord is
> working
> just fine..
>
> Enough of this, lets get up and move on ...
>
> =8 -)
>
> Warrnen, I am hoping to be at RUG 2005 ! See ya there...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of James Mckenzie
> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:25 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> Patrick and the others:
>
> Wow! I never thought about that. However, I stand by my suggestion
of
> the
> OP not going to his/her boss. This is sorta like the kid that
> tattletales.
> Only in this case, the OP could be relieved of employment and sued by
> the
> individual. I would approach the individual, advising them that I
> inadvertantly was made aware of the situation and give them a time
> period to
> correct the situation. This may be as simple as Remedy gave them the
> RSP
> anyway based upon work experience. (Yes, I would qualify as I have
> worked
> with Remedy products for over six years, but I still would feel better
> taking the test to see what I really know, not what I think I know.)
> The
> individual may be confused as to his/her RSP status. If they make no
> attempt to correct the situation, then I would take it through HR,
> anonymously. Let them sort it out. If the individual is then
'relieved
> of
> employment' this would be for company reasons and not look like a
> vendetta.
>
> James McKenzie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zandi Patrick S TSgt AFRL/IFOSS
> Sent: Apr 7, 2005 7:22 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: [ARSLIST] Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
> Getting in Late on this thread.. Great comment.. Consider (Matt 18:23
to
> the
> end) the parable of the Unmerciful Servant::
> The servants told their master. Why? Because they are servants!
> You are not judging them, you are doing what is right. You have a
> responsibility to your master / Employer. Now if they say don't worry
> about
> it.. The issue is on them (ur boss).
>
> The idea that the Drug Dealer in your neighborhood is just going to
> Automatically disappear, if I do nothing .. is wrong. If I confront
> evil
> with good (or what is right) then evil is in check. But if I do
> nothing.. it
> is then a Free for all..and is run a muck..
>
> When I was a kid it was normal for the Bus Driver to "Whip your Butt"
> and
> then when you got home your DAD did the same.
> or when you did something wrong in the neighborhood, your neighbor
made
> your
> see the STARS while he laid out the Stripes, then your DAD did the
same
> !
>
> Today a bus driver cannot even talk to a child without the parents
> considering Legal Action.
>
>
>
>
> From: Action Request System discussion list(ARSList)
> [mailto:arslist@ARSLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Morey White
> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:24 AM
> To: arslist@ARSLIST.ORG
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
>
> **
> Using "He that is without sin among you , let him first cast a
stone..."
> in
> this situation is not spiritual wisdom but rather twisting the word to
> meet
> your needs or opinion. The question here is not judgement of a
person.
> Whether we like it or not the business of business is to make money
and
> as
> employees we are responsible to that end. If this person has attended
> the
> training on the company's tab and has wasted the company's money by
> failing
> the training then the company needs to know about it. It doesn't
matter
> how
> the facts were gathered it is the responsibility of the employee to
> report
> any fraudulent findings to management. This action is not judgement,
it
> is
> just being a good employee.
>
> Morey White
> Support Services Group
> AutoGas Systems, Inc.
>
>
>
>
> Kathy Morris Sent by: "Action Request
> System discussion list(ARSList)"
>
>
>
> 04/06/2005 08:02 PM
> Please respond to arslist
>
>
>
> To:
> cc:
> Subject: Re: Need Advice: False Remedy Certification
>
>
>
> **
> I agree with the spiritual wisdom that you received.
>
> "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."
> This person's sin was "lying." Another person's sin may be perhaps a
> gossiper, being judgmental, mean, revengeful, spiteful, disgracing
> others,
> lacking mercy, being unkind, stealing company time, debating, pride,
> greed
> or some area of sin.
>
> I would not pull the blanket off this person. We all shall reap what
we
> sow.
>
> We all have had our seasons where we may not have demonstrated a good
> standard of ethics. Would you want someone to expose your sins to the
> world? or to your department?
>
>
> This posting was submitted via the Web
> interface
>
> This posting was submitted via the Web
> interface
>
>

>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>

>
>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>

>
> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>
>


> UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
> (Support: mailto:support@arslist.org)
>



UNSUBSCRIBE or access ARSlist Archives at http://www.ARSLIST.org
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